I would never recommend a low or mid-saps oil unless the application absolutely demands it.
Low SAPS and engine protection
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Jetronic,
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
I would never recommend a low or mid-saps oil unless the application absolutely demands it.
But that's the thing. Everyone in the US say exactly this. However most of the oils in Europe are now now mid/low SAPs. It is getting harder and harder to find full SAPS oils here.
But I am still curios to hear your opinion regarding Edge(mid SAPS) vs SynPower(full SAPS) or Helix Ultra (full SAPS).
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
I would never recommend a low or mid-saps oil unless the application absolutely demands it.
But that's the thing. Everyone in the US say exactly this. However most of the oils in Europe are now now mid/low SAPs. It is getting harder and harder to find full SAPS oils here.
But I am still curios to hear your opinion regarding Edge(mid SAPS) vs SynPower(full SAPS) or Helix Ultra (full SAPS).
I'm not in the US...
I used castrol edge 5w40 turbo diesel FST in my car, because it's required for the DP. I don't really like it, I got more frequent dpf regens for the whole year I used it. Then I had an oil change to Total (by the dealer for warranty reasons) and dpf regens went down again. I didn't know why, but the LSPI thread and some work I read about fuel borne catalysts seems to suggest that pure calcium detergents are better for low soot production than calcium/magnesium in a diesel engine.
This is for your qashqai, and it's a petrol? Look for a full saps with a calcium/magnesium detergent package. If a diesel, look for lots of calcium, no magnesium.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B46INWVBpbo6M0NneldKeEo1b2M/edit?usp=sharing
and a good amount of zinc/phosporus
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B46INWVBpbo6NWpEbE9ZTDQ3OEk/edit?usp=sharing
MartinMosny made those graphs.
I used castrol edge 5w40 turbo diesel FST in my car, because it's required for the DP. I don't really like it, I got more frequent dpf regens for the whole year I used it. Then I had an oil change to Total (by the dealer for warranty reasons) and dpf regens went down again. I didn't know why, but the LSPI thread and some work I read about fuel borne catalysts seems to suggest that pure calcium detergents are better for low soot production than calcium/magnesium in a diesel engine.
This is for your qashqai, and it's a petrol? Look for a full saps with a calcium/magnesium detergent package. If a diesel, look for lots of calcium, no magnesium.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B46INWVBpbo6M0NneldKeEo1b2M/edit?usp=sharing
and a good amount of zinc/phosporus
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B46INWVBpbo6NWpEbE9ZTDQ3OEk/edit?usp=sharing
MartinMosny made those graphs.
Volodymyr,
Only recently A3/B4 spec went higher in TBN minimum requirement. This is why you could find oils with A3/B4 and C3 in the past. I'm telling you this so you understand that A3/B4 from 08 and C3 from 15 are very similar.
I like full SAPS oils, especially in diesels that can use them. For your modern petrol I'd use either way. Actually you could even profit with mid SAPS oils if you intend to use car for long. C3 oils save catalyst, that is the reason OEMs use them in petrols.
Only recently A3/B4 spec went higher in TBN minimum requirement. This is why you could find oils with A3/B4 and C3 in the past. I'm telling you this so you understand that A3/B4 from 08 and C3 from 15 are very similar.
I like full SAPS oils, especially in diesels that can use them. For your modern petrol I'd use either way. Actually you could even profit with mid SAPS oils if you intend to use car for long. C3 oils save catalyst, that is the reason OEMs use them in petrols.
chrisri,
Now I have two conflicting opinions between yours and Jetronic
Now I have two conflicting opinions between yours and Jetronic
Jetronic,
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
This is for your qashqai, and it's a petrol? Look for a full saps with a calcium/magnesium detergent package. If a diesel, look for lots of calcium, no magnesium.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B46INWVBpbo6M0NneldKeEo1b2M/edit?usp=sharing
and a good amount of zinc/phosporus
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B46INWVBpbo6NWpEbE9ZTDQ3OEk/edit?usp=sharing
MartinMosny made those graphs.
Thanks for the useful info. It is indeed interesting to see the oils with high zddp and calcium packs, however I am surprised that high additives does not always mean strict specs are met by the oil.
For example, on these graphs the oil Motul 8100 X-lite 0W-30 has a lot of calcium and a lot of zddp, however on the paper it only meets MB 229.3 and not MB 229.5: Motul 8100 x-lite
Why is it so? With such strong additve pack I would suspect it should meet the most strict specs out there.
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
This is for your qashqai, and it's a petrol? Look for a full saps with a calcium/magnesium detergent package. If a diesel, look for lots of calcium, no magnesium.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B46INWVBpbo6M0NneldKeEo1b2M/edit?usp=sharing
and a good amount of zinc/phosporus
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B46INWVBpbo6NWpEbE9ZTDQ3OEk/edit?usp=sharing
MartinMosny made those graphs.
Thanks for the useful info. It is indeed interesting to see the oils with high zddp and calcium packs, however I am surprised that high additives does not always mean strict specs are met by the oil.
For example, on these graphs the oil Motul 8100 X-lite 0W-30 has a lot of calcium and a lot of zddp, however on the paper it only meets MB 229.3 and not MB 229.5: Motul 8100 x-lite
Why is it so? With such strong additve pack I would suspect it should meet the most strict specs out there.
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No, not at all. I just can't see absolute need to use A3/B4 in your Nissan. Nothing wrong if you do though.
Originally Posted By: volodymyr
Jetronic,
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
This is for your qashqai, and it's a petrol? Look for a full saps with a calcium/magnesium detergent package. If a diesel, look for lots of calcium, no magnesium.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B46INWVBpbo6M0NneldKeEo1b2M/edit?usp=sharing
and a good amount of zinc/phosporus
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B46INWVBpbo6NWpEbE9ZTDQ3OEk/edit?usp=sharing
MartinMosny made those graphs.
Thanks for the useful info. It is indeed interesting to see the oils with high zddp and calcium packs, however I am surprised that high additives does not always mean strict specs are met by the oil.
For example, on these graphs the oil Motul 8100 X-lite 0W-30 has a lot of calcium and a lot of zddp, however on the paper it only meets MB 229.3 and not MB 229.5: Motul 8100 x-lite
Why is it so? With such strong additve pack I would suspect it should meet the most strict specs out there.
Different NOACK requirement for MB229.5
Jetronic,
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
This is for your qashqai, and it's a petrol? Look for a full saps with a calcium/magnesium detergent package. If a diesel, look for lots of calcium, no magnesium.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B46INWVBpbo6M0NneldKeEo1b2M/edit?usp=sharing
and a good amount of zinc/phosporus
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B46INWVBpbo6NWpEbE9ZTDQ3OEk/edit?usp=sharing
MartinMosny made those graphs.
Thanks for the useful info. It is indeed interesting to see the oils with high zddp and calcium packs, however I am surprised that high additives does not always mean strict specs are met by the oil.
For example, on these graphs the oil Motul 8100 X-lite 0W-30 has a lot of calcium and a lot of zddp, however on the paper it only meets MB 229.3 and not MB 229.5: Motul 8100 x-lite
Why is it so? With such strong additve pack I would suspect it should meet the most strict specs out there.
Different NOACK requirement for MB229.5
Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
The biggest issue I have with low/mid saps oils is running out of anti-oxydants before the end of the oci....
Antioxidants are usually ashless, so this point is largely moot.
ZDDP is an antioxydant, and NOT ashless...
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
The biggest issue I have with low/mid saps oils is running out of anti-oxydants before the end of the oci....
Antioxidants are usually ashless, so this point is largely moot.
ZDDP is an antioxydant, and NOT ashless...
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
The biggest issue I have with low/mid saps oils is running out of anti-oxydants before the end of the oci....
Antioxidants are usually ashless, so this point is largely moot.
ZDDP is an antioxydant, and NOT ashless...
Yes, but if you reduce ZDDP you can increase other antioxidants with no ash penalty. Additionally, to get low-/mid-SAPS oils you don't just pull additive out of a full-SAPS oil, you use different additives. The performance specifications for lower-SAPS oils are often the same or sometimes tougher than for full-SAPS.
Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
The biggest issue I have with low/mid saps oils is running out of anti-oxydants before the end of the oci....
Antioxidants are usually ashless, so this point is largely moot.
ZDDP is an antioxydant, and NOT ashless...
Yes, but if you reduce ZDDP you can increase other antioxidants with no ash penalty. Additionally, to get low-/mid-SAPS oils you don't just pull additive out of a full-SAPS oil, you use different additives. The performance specifications for lower-SAPS oils are often the same or sometimes tougher than for full-SAPS.
Yet, they simply don't last (the oils) to the same extend as a full saps A3/B4 does. They're much more prone to early varnishing.
Yes, it seems like the discussions like these will go on and go on and go on.
For the moment I will stick to A3/B4 since my car does not consume the oil at all.
If I will notice consumption I will re-study the subject again and probably will move to mid-SAPS top brands like Castrol.
For the moment I will stick to A3/B4 since my car does not consume the oil at all.
If I will notice consumption I will re-study the subject again and probably will move to mid-SAPS top brands like Castrol.
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Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Yet, they simply don't last (the oils) to the same extend as a full saps A3/B4 does. They're much more prone to early varnishing.
I'm not disputing; I'd just like to hear more about that. We don't have a lot of experience with such lubes in North America, obviously.
Yet, they simply don't last (the oils) to the same extend as a full saps A3/B4 does. They're much more prone to early varnishing.
I'm not disputing; I'd just like to hear more about that. We don't have a lot of experience with such lubes in North America, obviously.
Originally Posted By: volodymyr
Falcon_LS,
Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
Having said that, the engine (GM LL8) runs quieter and feels smoother than it did with M1 0W-40. It's also more responsive. Some may attribute that to going down a grade from a 40 weight to a 30 weight, but ESP 5W-30 is closer to a 40 weight than it is 30 - especially with the HTHS being just shy of 3.6.
Can you tell us how did it go in a long term? Are you still using low SAPs oils in your engine?
The reason I am following this thread is that I have more or less the same conditions as you: I live in a place where the petrol has low sulfur levels and most of the oils sold in Europe are now low/mid SAPs only.
My engine (MR20DE) specs A3, A1, A5, C2 and C3 so I am very interested in the results of your experiment
I'm still running M1 5W-30 ESP with no problems whatsoever. With the low/mid SAPS trend in Europe, I would stick with what's most widely available and use it.
That said, that's quite a variety of different specifications your manual calls for!
Falcon_LS,
Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
Having said that, the engine (GM LL8) runs quieter and feels smoother than it did with M1 0W-40. It's also more responsive. Some may attribute that to going down a grade from a 40 weight to a 30 weight, but ESP 5W-30 is closer to a 40 weight than it is 30 - especially with the HTHS being just shy of 3.6.
Can you tell us how did it go in a long term? Are you still using low SAPs oils in your engine?
The reason I am following this thread is that I have more or less the same conditions as you: I live in a place where the petrol has low sulfur levels and most of the oils sold in Europe are now low/mid SAPs only.
My engine (MR20DE) specs A3, A1, A5, C2 and C3 so I am very interested in the results of your experiment
I'm still running M1 5W-30 ESP with no problems whatsoever. With the low/mid SAPS trend in Europe, I would stick with what's most widely available and use it.
That said, that's quite a variety of different specifications your manual calls for!
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Yet, they simply don't last (the oils) to the same extend as a full saps A3/B4 does. They're much more prone to early varnishing.
I'm not disputing; I'd just like to hear more about that. We don't have a lot of experience with such lubes in North America, obviously.
Lowand mid saps oils became popular about a decade ago, when DPF engines became the norm. Varnished up engines were pretty much non-existent if the maintenance shedule was followed before that time, they're now quite usual. Lots of petrols use low- or midsaps oils aswell now since garages try to keep only 1 product in bulk to do all.
We used catrol Magnatec professional OE (same as B4) 5w-40 until end of last year, now we're using Castrol Magnatec Professional MP 5w-30 as the new engines getting released aren't approved for 5w-40.
In 2006 we used Total Quartz 9000 5w-40 even with DPf equipped cars and we never had issues. The DPFs lasted 2 to 3 times their rated life. This has not improved using the castrol oil (acea C3), and that's putting it lightly. I know of some dealers in the same br&and network using cheaper oils, they're having much more engine/oil related issues as we do so I don't believe the Castrol is an inferior product at all. I can still pick out most of the cars that got serviced elsewhere from just looking down the filler hole in the valve cover...
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Yet, they simply don't last (the oils) to the same extend as a full saps A3/B4 does. They're much more prone to early varnishing.
I'm not disputing; I'd just like to hear more about that. We don't have a lot of experience with such lubes in North America, obviously.
Lowand mid saps oils became popular about a decade ago, when DPF engines became the norm. Varnished up engines were pretty much non-existent if the maintenance shedule was followed before that time, they're now quite usual. Lots of petrols use low- or midsaps oils aswell now since garages try to keep only 1 product in bulk to do all.
We used catrol Magnatec professional OE (same as B4) 5w-40 until end of last year, now we're using Castrol Magnatec Professional MP 5w-30 as the new engines getting released aren't approved for 5w-40.
In 2006 we used Total Quartz 9000 5w-40 even with DPf equipped cars and we never had issues. The DPFs lasted 2 to 3 times their rated life. This has not improved using the castrol oil (acea C3), and that's putting it lightly. I know of some dealers in the same br&and network using cheaper oils, they're having much more engine/oil related issues as we do so I don't believe the Castrol is an inferior product at all. I can still pick out most of the cars that got serviced elsewhere from just looking down the filler hole in the valve cover...
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Thanks for the information. How have the OCIs changed in similar applications with the switch in oil specs? I know oil is pretty expensive in much of Europe, but have there been any indications that shorter OCIs have helped in these situations?
I've only seen one C3 example, offhand, on the shelves here, being Castrol C3 dexos2 5w-30.
I've only seen one C3 example, offhand, on the shelves here, being Castrol C3 dexos2 5w-30.
The OCI didn't change officially, but they're often shorter for eu6 emission cars, or the sump sized increased. But that's a very recent change for diesel only, I can't comment on the changes yet.
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Yet, they simply don't last (the oils) to the same extend as a full saps A3/B4 does. They're much more prone to early varnishing.
Yes bcs of sulphur in gas. If you use German gas, OCI is much longer.
If you use American gas, of well, 3K is best you can do it in DI engine.
Yet, they simply don't last (the oils) to the same extend as a full saps A3/B4 does. They're much more prone to early varnishing.
Yes bcs of sulphur in gas. If you use German gas, OCI is much longer.
If you use American gas, of well, 3K is best you can do it in DI engine.
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Yet, they simply don't last (the oils) to the same extend as a full saps A3/B4 does. They're much more prone to early varnishing.
Not debating what you're saying , but would you explain the C3 varnishing phenomenon in relation to
A3/B4 ....say in 1.3L toyota MPI mid 2000's engine with 500 ppm sulphur Euro 2 RON 95 petrol in
my case ?
Appreciate your inputs ....
Yet, they simply don't last (the oils) to the same extend as a full saps A3/B4 does. They're much more prone to early varnishing.
Not debating what you're saying , but would you explain the C3 varnishing phenomenon in relation to
A3/B4 ....say in 1.3L toyota MPI mid 2000's engine with 500 ppm sulphur Euro 2 RON 95 petrol in
my case ?
Appreciate your inputs ....
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