Older engine, Higher SAPS?

[shortyb]

Always wondered the consensus on this since I have an older VW 2.0TFSI engine with 140K. Is it preferable to use a full/high SAPS oil for the increased protective and detergent adds, or is a mid/lower SAPS a better choice to keep IVD at bay? Engine was walnut blasted at 100K and still drives like a scalded dog. I have VW 502, VW 504, and VW 511 oils handy. My newer VW engines are getting the "cleaner" oils, but maybe the IVD theory is overblown here too and should use a more "protective" oil.

 

[chris719]

No one has really been able to produce any evidence that the low SAPS oils are better or worse regarding wear. They all meet specs but as to if the new organic ashless additives are as good as ZDDP, I don’t think I’ve seen anything concrete. Could be wrong but I haven’t seen anything, and I don’t count UOAs.

IVD seems much more a function of engine design rather than SA. I saw a teardown of a failed BMW N55 run with full SAPS for 100k miles and the valves were pretty clean still and that’s without port injection. I’m guessing nothing you can find will prevent you from having to do another walnut blasting in 100k.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Always wondered the consensus on this since I have an older VW 2.0TFSI engine with 140K. Is it preferable to use a full/high SAPS oil for the increased protective and detergent adds, or is a mid/lower SAPS a better choice to keep IVD at bay? Engine was walnut blasted at 100K and still drives like a scalded dog. I have VW 502, VW 504, and VW 511 oils handy. My newer VW engines are getting the "cleaner" oils, but maybe the IVD theory is overblown here too and should use a more "protective" oil.

If the rings are in good shape, the PCV system is properly baffled and working so oil does not end up in the combustion chamber, full-SAPS oils pose no concern to catalytic converters.

In a way, having an engine require low-SAPS oils says, to me, that the manufacturer KNOWS the engine will begin burning oil in short order. That’s my take at least.

 

[RooflessVW]

In a way, having an engine require low-SAPS oils says, to me, that the manufacturer KNOWS the engine will begin burning oil in short order. That’s my take at least.

All engines burn oil.

 

[The Critic]

If the rings are in good shape, the PCV system is properly baffled and working so oil does not end up in the combustion chamber, full-SAPS oils pose no concern to catalytic converters.

In a way, having an engine require low-SAPS oils says, to me, that the manufacturer KNOWS the engine will begin burning oil in short order. That’s my take at least.

That isn't entirely correct. All engines will consume some amount of oil. As miniscule as it may be, the engine running a full SAPS oil does pose a higher risk to the catalytic converters. In the absence of a GPF, it probably isn't a huge issue - but at some point, there is probably a difference in service life.

Whether or not that becomes an issue during your ownership....is also uncertain.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

All engines burn oil.

The percentage of burn is obviously the key if this is an issue or not.

@High Performance Lubricants is there an industry limit to the percentage of oil combustion that will shorten the life of the cats?

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

That isn't entirely correct. All engines will consume some amount of oil. As miniscule as it may be, the engine running a full SAPS oil does pose a higher risk to the catalytic converters. In the absence of a GPF, it probably isn't a huge issue - but at some point, there is probably a difference in service life.

Whether or not that becomes an issue during your ownership....is also uncertain.

Obviously. Addressed in my just-prior post. Agree, and I think this is one area where there isn’t much tribal knowledge for all of us who aren’t auto/diesel manufacturers. There are probably guidelines used as far as leak down rates or certain ring-pack sizes that Euro mfrs use to determine where they transition from full- to mid- to low-SAPS. We appear to just not know if this is the case.

 

[shortyb]

Seems like a lot at play when it comes to SAPS and engine interaction. The move to lower SAPS as a function of emissions to protect the GPF/DPFs just as much as prevent any kind of build up while still maintaining protective abilities. And if Euro manufacturers really want to do something to help mitigate IVD, especially in forced induction, incorporate dual injection systems. I know some euro cars have moved back to DI exclusively for emissions reasons, complexity, and cost, but doing both can be done.

Guess I'll keep sending the full-SAPS on the DADWAGN and motor on. Regardless, I should probably look forward to another cleaning as the intake manifold/flap system should gum up pretty bad by then and gives me a chance to install a new I/M. IF I live that long .

 

[Jetronic]

That isn't entirely correct. All engines will consume some amount of oil. As miniscule as it may be, the engine running a full SAPS oil does pose a higher risk to the catalytic converters. In the absence of a GPF, it probably isn't a huge issue - but at some point, there is probably a difference in service life.

Whether or not that becomes an issue during your ownership....is also uncertain.

I ran my diesel with dpf and egr on full-saps oil, without a single issue. If folklore is right, I would have needed a new dpf already even running on mid-saps oils as per the manual but the dpf or indeed engine still ran like day 1 after 9.5 years

It all depends on the application, if the engine started burning oil I wouldn't have run full saps in it. but no dicernible drop or rise in oil levels during my ownership except possibly in the first few thousand miles on the factory fill.

 

[RooflessVW]

I ran my diesel with dpf and egr on full-saps oil, without a single issue. If folklore is right, I would have needed a new dpf already even running on mid-saps oils as per the manual but the dpf or indeed engine still ran like day 1 after 9.5 years

It all depends on the application, if the engine started burning oil I wouldn't have run full saps in it. but no dicernible drop or rise in oil levels during my ownership except possibly in the first few thousand miles on the factory fill.

504/507 (which is actually a mid SAPS spec) has more to it than aftertreatment compatibility, and aftertreatment compatibility means more than just the SAPS of the oil.

Basically, a very high quality oil is what is specified. And it's specified to hopefully prevent people from using junk bulk oil.

That you've had success with non-spec oils is no surprise and it doesn't take away from what 504/507 is.

 

[TiGeo]

Always wondered the consensus on this since I have an older VW 2.0TFSI engine with 140K. Is it preferable to use a full/high SAPS oil for the increased protective and detergent adds, or is a mid/lower SAPS a better choice to keep IVD at bay? Engine was walnut blasted at 100K and still drives like a scalded dog. I have VW 502, VW 504, and VW 511 oils handy. My newer VW engines are getting the "cleaner" oils, but maybe the IVD theory is overblown here too and should use a more "protective" oil.

I don't believe the SAPS of a 502 vs. 504 has anything do with the IVD.

Edit. And neither do catch cans.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Always wondered the consensus on this since I have an older VW 2.0TFSI engine with 140K. Is it preferable to use a full/high SAPS oil for the increased protective and detergent adds, or is a mid/lower SAPS a better choice to keep IVD at bay? Engine was walnut blasted at 100K and still drives like a scalded dog. I have VW 502, VW 504, and VW 511 oils handy. My newer VW engines are getting the "cleaner" oils, but maybe the IVD theory is overblown here too and should use a more "protective" oil.

Technically current certs have a performance advantage over older certs. ZDDP isn't everything but it can be measured so people gravitate towards it unlike other additives which do the same thing but don't appear in a UOA.

Compare various specifications and then make a determination.

Relative Performance Comparison Tool for Passenger Car Specifications - Engine Oil Additives - The Lubrizol Corporation

online.lubrizol.com

 

[Jetronic]

504/507 (which is actually a mid SAPS spec) has more to it than aftertreatment compatibility, and aftertreatment compatibility means more than just the SAPS of the oil.

Basically, a very high quality oil is what is specified. And it's specified to hopefully prevent people from using junk bulk oil.

That you've had success with non-spec oils is no surprise and it doesn't take away from what 504/507 is.

Mine was high spec too, it's on the mercedes 229.5 bevo-list

 

[kschachn]

504/507 (which is actually a mid SAPS spec) has more to it than aftertreatment compatibility, and aftertreatment compatibility means more than just the SAPS of the oil.

Basically, a very high quality oil is what is specified. And it's specified to hopefully prevent people from using junk bulk oil.

That you've had success with non-spec oils is no surprise and it doesn't take away from what 504/507 is.

VW 504 00/507 00 is about as universal an oil as it gets.

 

[chris719]

Technically current certs have a performance advantage over older certs. ZDDP isn't everything but it can be measured so people gravitate towards it unlike other additives which do the same thing but don't appear in a UOA.

Compare various specifications and then make a determination.

Relative Performance Comparison Tool for Passenger Car Specifications - Engine Oil Additives - The Lubrizol Corporation

online.lubrizol.com

The tool does mention it’s only useful inside a particular type of or manufacturer’s specs, not across all. It seems to me that the gains are in aftertreatment compatibility for the most part, with wear requirements staying the same.

It is interesting that many of the new “FE” standards score the same on wear but have far lower HTHS. I feel like I see mixed messaging here sometimes, arguing that the spec is everything but also ignore it when it comes to lower HTHS oils.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

The tool does mention it’s only useful inside a particular type of or manufacturer’s specs, not across all. It seems to me that the gains are in aftertreatment compatibility for the most part, with wear requirements staying the same.

It is interesting that many of the new “FE” standards score the same on wear but have far lower HTHS. I feel like I see mixed messaging here sometimes, arguing that the spec is everything but also ignore it when it comes to lower HTHS oils.

Yep. So for the OP he would only look at VW certs and see how they compare.

 

[RooflessVW]

Mine was high spec too, it's on the mercedes 229.5 bevo-list

Exactly my point.

 

[kschachn]

It is interesting that many of the new “FE” standards score the same on wear but have far lower HTHS. I feel like I see mixed messaging here sometimes, arguing that the spec is everything but also ignore it when it comes to lower HTHS oils.

Yes, no, maybe so. The VW 508 00 oil has a relatively high HT/HS compared to most ILSAC 20-grades, so that makes a difference. When it comes to wear it's not really about the grade it's about the HT/HS and the inflection point is near these values. And in the ACEA Sequences it's not always the same wear requirement across a Sequence.

Also remember that there is a stay-in-grade requirement due to shear but not one for fuel dilution - which is common with many engines today.

 

[OVERKILL]

Technically current certs have a performance advantage over older certs. ZDDP isn't everything but it can be measured so people gravitate towards it unlike other additives which do the same thing but don't appear in a UOA.

Compare various specifications and then make a determination.

Relative Performance Comparison Tool for Passenger Car Specifications - Engine Oil Additives - The Lubrizol Corporation

online.lubrizol.com

In my discussion with Dave at @High Performance Lubricants after making a similar statement on here a while back, I came away with the understanding that "it's complicated". There is no simple 1:1 replacement for ZDDP, there are however various additives/compounds that can reduce the necessary volume of ZDDP to meet the performance requirements. Some of these (borated compounds, moly) do show up on VOA/UOA's, others (certain esters) won't.

My conclusion from that exciting mental exercise was basically that if you took the full SAPS additive package and then applied the same approach, you'd end up with an even better product, because those synergies that reduce ZDDP requirements for a given level of wear performance don't disappear if you keep the ZDDP level higher, you would just reduce wear and friction further.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

In my discussion with Dave at @High Performance Lubricants after making a similar statement on here a while back, I came away with the understanding that "it's complicated". There is no simple 1:1 replacement for ZDDP, there are however various additives/compounds that can reduce the necessary volume of ZDDP to meet the performance requirements. Some of these (borated compounds, moly) do show up on VOA/UOA's, others (certain esters) won't.

My conclusion from that exciting mental exercise was basically that if you took the full SAPS additive package and then applied the same approach, you'd end up with an even better product, because those synergies that reduce ZDDP requirements for a given level of wear performance don't disappear if you keep the ZDDP level higher, you would just reduce wear and friction further.

I can see that. I would say that they would be for all intensive purposes no worse (ex 505 vs 504) and then with every revision of a cert the performance requirements increase (504 rev 2010 vs 504 rev 2020). There must be a point of diminishing returns. After all it shouldn't matter if bearing life ends at 380k vs 400k miles when the rest of the vehicle is junk.