Larger Oil Filter = more flow of oil ?
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Capacity not circulation for heat control (theoretical)
If you go to WIX they list the micron and flow rate for most filters, also the length ect...I also use Baldwin xref because it will list numerous sizes for one filter if available then I go back to WIX for specifics (micron / gpm)...so look for a larger filter if available
If you go to WIX they list the micron and flow rate for most filters, also the length ect...I also use Baldwin xref because it will list numerous sizes for one filter if available then I go back to WIX for specifics (micron / gpm)...so look for a larger filter if available
Most likely not. Because the oil pump is a fixed displacement pump, and only puts out a given amount of flow at a specific RPM. 2 cu" of pump displacement x 100 rpm = 200 cubic inches of oil flowing per minute (1 US gal. = 231 cubic inches).
What a bigger filter will do, is allow the oil to pass through the element at a slower rate which theoretically should allow for better debris removal, since the particles are traveling a a slower rate of speed. if it contains more square inches of the same type media it will have a larger dirt holding capacity than a smaller one.
Clear as mud right?
No but better filtered oil if the same element is used.
Actually, it should help cooling a "slight" amount. The bigger can has more heat transfer area. How much? "some"
Can you expound on that?! I am as clear as day but not mud.
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What he's saying is that if the same media (as in level of filtration) is used ..over a larger surface area ..the flow will be reduced in velocity ..thereby increasing its efficiency. The slower the flow for any given media, the better the filtering. Particles embed or get snagged that would normally blow through.
Thanks, would there be any effect of the lower flow versus a higher flow? Another words, if it filters better due to it slowing down, does the slowdown affect performance any?
Thanks.
I agree with everything above. A larger filter will also reduce the number of times your bypass valve opens as there is more filter material for oil to pass through.
"Lower flow" vs "higher flow" only relates to the flow rate through the media itself. The flow through the filter as a whole will be the same.
"Lower flow" vs "higher flow" only relates to the flow rate through the media itself. The flow through the filter as a whole will be the same.
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The oil is basically crawling through the filter anyway. Look at your media stretched out. Look at your threaded return port. So, while increasing the media ^2" is a good thing, you get a diminishing rate of return for going bigger. We just don't produce as much garbage as we used to. I doubt that anyone on this board retires a substantially loaded filter.
On the topic of instances of bypass valve use. I imagine that in some engines, with pump volumes that allow a narrow span between peak cold pressure ..and idle normalized pressure, would have a higher incidence of enough PSID than those systems where the peak pressure and normalized pressure are wide apart. My engine that I used when testing for bypass activity had a cold start pressure of 82psi @ idle and a hot idle pressure of anywhere between 25psi depending on viscosity. My only hint of bypass activity was during cold start with 20w-50 oil at subfreezing temps ..and then it was borderline with the lower end threshold ..and this was on a 10k used filter. My smaller (PureOne in the PH3614 size tea cup filter) showed no PSID no matter what I threw at it. I thought my gauge was broken. The action appeared to be due to just the effort (energy-mechanical action) to get the static cold fluid in motion. Spinning its tires for a few seconds. The bypass valve, outside of loading, should never be in use unless your pump output and flow to the engine is not at unity. That's when your oil pump is in relief. When the relief is closed ..then there will be no substantial PSID outside of what loading contributes to. It would take a whole lot of loading, in my estimate based on what a 10k filter had on it, to have you routinely in bypass mode. After my oil pressure was below my 82 psi relief limit, I wound out the engine to WOT in 2nd gear (no tach) with the oil @ 140-150F and managed to produce around 4-5 PSID. So, essentially, the baseline loading creates a variable, reactive, resistance due to the added energy require to accelerate the fluid through the partially saturated media. This energy is reduce as the oil heats. New(er) filters don't even result as a blip on the radar in my observations. YMMV.
Holy Cow! I should never try to read this stuff too early in the morning...
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Good to see you're still lurking, Big O Dave!
Yes, rereading the quoted stuff ..it does have a few twist and turns to it there
It's all the qualifications that you have to include to assure that you're in "full disclosure" ..so that your statements can't be misconstrued to a "in all instances ..under all circumstances" type thing. There are always exceptions ..even when you can't imagine what they would be.
Essentially, in my observations, all substantial PSID (read, "measurable") occurred during cold start when the oil pump was in relief. Most engines go to the relief limit upon startup. What's unknown is the differential.
You can kinda see it if you watch close. Most senders are downstream of the filter (note, "most"). When you first start, the needle will swing up (delay ..or no delay
)..and may slow at a certain point ..then creep up to the peak pressure. This is most likely the relief valve closing ...sending the full flow to the engine (the "easing up" to full pressure).
That is, constant pump output (the engine is at the same speed) ..and variable realized pressure. This means variable realized flow. That means variable PSID. Whether it means that your bypass is open or not depends on the amount of flow shunted to the return. The bypass limits the amount of oil that goes to the relief port ..since it limits the maximum PSID that the filter can attain.
Yes, rereading the quoted stuff ..it does have a few twist and turns to it there
Essentially, in my observations, all substantial PSID (read, "measurable") occurred during cold start when the oil pump was in relief. Most engines go to the relief limit upon startup. What's unknown is the differential.
You can kinda see it if you watch close. Most senders are downstream of the filter (note, "most"). When you first start, the needle will swing up (delay ..or no delay
That is, constant pump output (the engine is at the same speed) ..and variable realized pressure. This means variable realized flow. That means variable PSID. Whether it means that your bypass is open or not depends on the amount of flow shunted to the return. The bypass limits the amount of oil that goes to the relief port ..since it limits the maximum PSID that the filter can attain.
Gary, I'm at BITOG everyday, reading when I have time. Today, I got up early and thought I'd read some Gary Allan posts, and voila!
You KNOW how I feel about oversized filters
and I just had to read this. Very good explanations, here. The logic makes sense: if the inlet (and/or outlet) holes through which the oil flows are the same size for two filters, and the flow capacity of even the smallest filter element can handle the maximum flow through those inlet/outlet holes, then you're not going to gain any flow advantage by going to a bigger filter. You DO get greater capacity (and better filtering efficiency) to hold debris until the next oil and filter change, but no more flow. The inlet and outlet holes are the limiting factor, in this example.
Also, it seems reasonable that a larger element would be less likely to go into bypass, but again, that's predicated on the assumption that the inlet/outlet holes in the filter are not the limiting factor.
Gary, in your experience and testing, have you found that larger elements can handle initial startup cold oil flow better than smaller elements? For example, comparing a FL-1a to a FL-299.
What say ye?
You KNOW how I feel about oversized filters
Also, it seems reasonable that a larger element would be less likely to go into bypass, but again, that's predicated on the assumption that the inlet/outlet holes in the filter are not the limiting factor.
Gary, in your experience and testing, have you found that larger elements can handle initial startup cold oil flow better than smaller elements? For example, comparing a FL-1a to a FL-299.
What say ye?
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Well, my experience is limited to my Mitsubishi 3.0 ..but flow should be flow. I saw no "immediate" PSID with any filter. Whether it was the used PH300 sized PureOne that Ugly 3 sent me with 10k on it ..or the newer PH3614 sized PureOne. Even with heavy oil. The only time I saw any PSID was during the pump relief event. This took very heavy oil in (relatively) very cold temps.
Here's the rub. This engine may cache oil better than some. If you have empty oil passages ..that are of a decent volume, then the initial startup may cause a temporary PSID that can (possibly) open the bypass valve. Once that volume is full ..then it depends on if your relief valve is open.
Like I said, until I put Ugly 3's 10k dirty filter on the engine ..and put in 20w-50 oil in overnight temps in the 20's ...I thought that my differential gauge may have been broken. No "distinct" jump ..nada. The worst thing I could have experienced is completing an experiment and having nothing to report
When I slapped in the used filter and the rest of the test conditions ...it gave me that Toyota "Oooow what a feeling" feeling
So, YMMV. I would say that if you see a substantial delay between starting the engine and seeing the needle sweep up (to whatever level) ..then you may be using your bypass valve.
For example, with my Mitsubishi engine ... when I saw relief action, BOTH upstream and downstream needles swept up at the same time ..with one (the downstream needle) stopping at a lower level as the upstream needle continued on to the pressure limit. Then the transition to equalization was rather quick. The downstream needle would climb to meet the upstream needle (within 2psi+/-). It was all rather "dynamic".
Here's the rub. This engine may cache oil better than some. If you have empty oil passages ..that are of a decent volume, then the initial startup may cause a temporary PSID that can (possibly) open the bypass valve. Once that volume is full ..then it depends on if your relief valve is open.
Like I said, until I put Ugly 3's 10k dirty filter on the engine ..and put in 20w-50 oil in overnight temps in the 20's ...I thought that my differential gauge may have been broken. No "distinct" jump ..nada. The worst thing I could have experienced is completing an experiment and having nothing to report
So, YMMV. I would say that if you see a substantial delay between starting the engine and seeing the needle sweep up (to whatever level) ..then you may be using your bypass valve.
For example, with my Mitsubishi engine ... when I saw relief action, BOTH upstream and downstream needles swept up at the same time ..with one (the downstream needle) stopping at a lower level as the upstream needle continued on to the pressure limit. Then the transition to equalization was rather quick. The downstream needle would climb to meet the upstream needle (within 2psi+/-). It was all rather "dynamic".
Small Wix (51365?) is good for at least 15000 miles in my Subaru...insoluables less than 0.2%. Opened up the pleats, and, as mentioned, there is LOTS of surface area. Compared a 15000 mile run on this filter to a 7500 mile run...no difference to the naked eye. I just don't think all engines benefit from larger filters...not measureably so, anyway.
You get more capacity but I have never seen or experienced any increased flow.
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