Is there such a thing as a simple car anymore

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Originally Posted By: mlatour
Originally Posted By: spasm3
I hate that you can't get a 1/2 truck without carpet.


My 2014 F150 XL has rubber mat flooring and manual windows,
reasons why I custom ordered it while they had plenty of fully loaded models available on the lot.
You can also order a new Ram with carpet delete on the option list.
 
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I don't think there are simple cars anymore. Don't delude yourself into thinking that something with crank windows is "simple". Pretty much all cars today are equipped with electronics that would embarrass a 10 or 15 year old "technowonder". Engines have very sophisticated controls, both directly and indirectly supporting new emissions requirements. All of those controls are driven by electronic sensors. A modern chassis, too, has a whole passel of electronic sensors for various required systems (ABS, stability control, TPMS, etc).

I'm not necessarily "for" or "against" many of these things, but I think people believe that something with a window crank and manual seat slider means you're getting something without electronics to break, and that's not necessarily the case.

Atleast though, almost all the safety tech can be broken and you can still drive the car when its 12 years old... Our safety inspection legislation is still mostly from the 1950's with the exception that the ABS must work if equipped, so you can even buy and sell a car with the mechanicals OK and the electronics messed up.
 
So what about the safety gadgets, a modern econobox still has front discs, rear drums (or cheezy discs), MacPherson struts, and a skinny sway bar or two. It might as well be a 1982 Cavalier.
frown.gif
The expensive low aspect ratio tires are the only reason it handles better than something from 30 years back.

Even Honda has gone from the better double wishbone to the lamer strut front end on some of their stuff.

Yeah, "active understeer control" is cute but how about a car that naturally finds its own way around a corner...
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Yeah, "active understeer control" is cute but how about a car that naturally finds its own way around a corner...


Buy a Porsche Cayman.

smile.gif


BC.
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino
So what about the safety gadgets, a modern econobox still has front discs, rear drums (or cheezy discs), MacPherson struts, and a skinny sway bar or two. It might as well be a 1982 Cavalier.
frown.gif
The expensive low aspect ratio tires are the only reason it handles better than something from 30 years back.

Even Honda has gone from the better double wishbone to the lamer strut front end on some of their stuff.

Yeah, "active understeer control" is cute but how about a car that naturally finds its own way around a corner...


911 and M3 have MacPherson struts up front. Lancia Delta Integrale use this setup all round.
All those cars handle way better than any Honda.
wink.gif
 
The problem is that 'basic' in todays cars is still chock full of electronics. Electronic climate controls. Body modules, sometimes multiples. Radio modules. Headlight modules. Nearly everything in 95% of the cars out there today are controlled by solid state electronics, and they all communicate with eachother by a complicated databus system. Thats something we'll never get away from again.
 
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
What's wrong with a fancy car? I mean I understand if you want a basic appliance to get you from point A to point B, but if you're going to get a decent car, why get a basic model? I want to be comfortable in what I drive. My 96' Chevy truck had every option available except an electric seat for the passenger, might not have even been an option for that year. My current car has every option available. Not a single option it doesn't have and I'm very happy about that. I don't want to drive a penalty box, and be uncomfortable with cheap seats, and have my back sore. I already did that with my Camry. That was one of the main reasons I sold it, a road trip made my back and tailbone hurt from the hard as a rock seats.


Because a lot of those things dont actually add to physical comfort or convenience, but are just gadgets or expensive add ons. Things that people can be convinced into needing, but would never remember they existed had they not bought them. Things that may ultimately be barely used.

Or, things that are more complex than really needed, which end up costing a ton to replace.
 
Originally Posted By: AdRock
How about a Tata Nano.


I'd rather DD our diesel Mule. That said, there's a good simple car suggestion!
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I don't mind technology, but I do abhor the onset of total tech invasion into my life ...

Bad and/or over-priced, trouble prone, infuriating things:
- TPMS (how lazy have we become as a driving society that we cannot check air pressure once a month?)
- touch-screen eveything-run-by radio/climate/etc (Ford Sync, for example)
- RSC
- Back-up cameras
- automatic climate controls (Ford EATC, for example)
- dual zone systems (side to side)
- redundant climate systems (front to rear)
- Lane control / Lane departure tech
At some point, these gadgets are going to fail or be broken. And then they are expensive and a PITB to repair, especially for the DIY guys and gals. It may not happen to every vehicle, or every person, but the propensity of these things to break is much greater than simple devices.


These "Bad" things: TPMS, touch-screen, RSC, Back-up camera, automatic climate controls, Lane control ... are missing in my S2000, it also doesn't have these: DRL (Daytime Running Light), traction control, heated memory power seats. It has very few control buttons/knobs on driver side and nothing on passenger side, so I can concentrate on driving. That is one of the reasons I like my S2000.

Actually it has few features I would like better if it doesn't have: power window and door lock, power top. The car is very small so I can easily raise or lower the top by hand.

The S2000 has 1 feature that no car in its price range had in early 2000's as standard that is HID headlight. I do like the very bright and wide that light up the country roads that no halogen headlight can match.
 
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Originally Posted By: chrisri
911 and M3 have Mac Pherson struts up front. Lancia Delta Integrale use this setup all round.
All those cars handle way better than any Honda.
wink.gif


Performance (straight line) probably, handling isn't so sure if your Honda includes S2000.

Porsche 911 is different class with any current Honda including Acura (in USA) so comparing 911 with any Honda is like Apple with Orange. If you want to compare Porsche 911 with a Honda, you should compare Porsche 911 with Acura NSX in the year 1991 when Honda introduced their first high performance car. Did 911 of that year handle any road, straight or twisty, better than NSX ?

Honda didn't and currently doesn't any car in M3 class either. But other than much larger engine with much more power, M3 isn't handle a tight race course better than S2000, specially when you compare M3 of model year 2000 with S2000 of the same model year when Honda first introduce that car in USA.

But a better comparison is model year 2000 between Porsche Boxster, BMW Z3 and S2000 because they are in the same class. Even the German have 6 cyl with more than 2.5L compares with 4 cyl 2.0L in the S2000, they could not beat S2000 in any race course.
 
As long as the fancy stuff can break and then be ignored, I'm fine. TPMS isn't required in this state and as such will get removed from my cars as the sensors break. ABS? I'll poke around on the newer cars but I won't go crazy on repairing. Power windows? Been a while since I've heard of one breaking. Keyless entry? Love it. The remote died for my car so now I "have" to use the key. Hard life. I manage.

How hard is it to repair a leaky heater core again? Surely that is an easy repair on a required safety item that has been around since the dawn of time.

*

I do agree on the LCD's in cars, and will likely avoid for a few years to come. I like buttons and knobs very much thank you. I like my new GPS but when it breaks it's cheap and easy to replace.
 
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

But a better comparison is model year 2000 between Porsche Boxster, BMW Z3 and S2000 because they are in the same class. Even the German have 6 cyl with more than 2.5L compares with 4 cyl 2.0L in the S2000, they could not beat S2000 in any race course.


BMW also had the (more expensive) Z8 in the same style sporting the 400HP mill from the M5. BMW was not chasing the HP/L thing the same way Honda was (actually, I think Honda was the only one chasing that.... but anyways) so it is no surprise that their small I6 in the Z3 was less power-dense than the ultra high strung I4 in the S2000.
 
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

These "Bad" things: TPMS, touch-screen, RSC, Back-up camera, automatic climate controls, Lane control ... are missing in my S2000, it also doesn't have these: DRL (Daytime Running Light), traction control, heated memory power seats. It has very few control buttons/knobs on driver side and nothing on passenger side, so I can concentrate on driving. That is one of the reasons I like my S2000.

Actually it has few features I would like better if it doesn't have: power window and door lock, power top. The car is very small so I can easily raise or lower the top by hand.


I actually am quite fond of a lot of those things, LOL!
wink.gif
The auto up/down windows are a real treat, the climate control is fantastic, you never need to touch it, and the heated memory power seats are beautiful to sit in for long drives and offer exceptional bolstered comfort when pushing the car.

The wheel mounted controls mean my eyes never need to leave the road to change a song or adjust the cruise (a plus in my books).

I appreciate the idea of a stripper (my buddy has owned a few Mustangs that way and my F-250 was that way) but at the same time, if you have a proper array of features that aren't intrusive and are well integrated they can be a bonus to you if you do a lot of driving. Some of them probably moreso in a sedan than a roadster of course, but I can't deny I'm fond of the convenience of these things in application.

Touch screen, back-up cameras and lane control? No, not in a "drivers car". Those are frills that add no convenience and do in fact take away from the "experience" of driving IMHO. So I agree with you there.

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
S2000 has 1 feature that no car in its price range had in early 2000's as standard that is HID headlight. I do like the very bright and wide that light up the country roads that no halogen headlight can match.


Yes, the HID's are a fantastic feature! Are yours auto-levelling? They are particularly, as you noted, beneficial on country roads at night
thumbsup2.gif
 
I'm happy with my complicated car. It's given me fewer problems than my simple cars.
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino
http://www.mitsubishicars.com/mirage

1973 lbs curb weight.

7 air bags including a knee one, presumably installed because the car was busting knee caps without one.

74 hp, 1.2 liter, 3 cylinder engine. 44 MPG.

165/65/14 tires.

Yech! I'd take a 1990s sentra/ corrolla/ saturn/ escort etc with a normal shape and 100 hp.

The auto press rips this Mirage a new one, BTW. Mitsu expects to sell 7000 a year in the US, peanuts.

This car should be applied as a sentence imposed on probationary drunk drivers and road ragers. Airport rental agencies should stock a few to stiff travelers hoping to get free upgrades to Impalas so they never try that trick again.


I would rather have a Mirage than an Impala. If I'm driving an appliance, give me the one that gets 44MPG! Actually, I suspect the Mirage might be a fun little car with a standard shift.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
What I hate is variable valve timing. You have to run thin oil or the system won't work.


Both GM and Chrysler V8 engines using VVT run well with almost any grade of oil. Cylinder shutdown is equally unaffected.

Commonly misunderstood...
 
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