Is there such a thing as a simple car anymore

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Originally Posted By: Throt
I had a friend that just bought a Dodge Caliber, totally stripped. Didn't even have cruise control. No power anything. Just an engine, transmission, wheels and doors.


Not even power windows?
 
I don't believe it, we actually pay less for the Mirage than you guys in the US! I'm not sure it meets the "simple" brief either - still has power this and that, and an electronics package that most 90's luxury cars would be jealous of...
 
Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
Originally Posted By: Throt
I had a friend that just bought a Dodge Caliber, totally stripped. Didn't even have cruise control. No power anything. Just an engine, transmission, wheels and doors.


Not even power windows?


You'd like my neon, I have to leave the car to open the trunk with the key. The gas filler door can be opened by anyone passing by.

If I were to splurge on power windows, there would still be cranks for the lepers in the rear seats.
 
I agree, a Yaris is a good choice, so is the Nissan Versa, or the Toyota(notice these are NOT American corporations, hint hint)
 
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Eljefino beat me to it... from what reviews I've seen and read, the Mitsubishi Mirage is as basic as you're going to get until the Elio releases.
 
From what I remember, Dodge Neon's never had rear seat power windows. That was always our joke with the SRT-4 guys, we'd roll by them while casually lowering one of our rear windows (usually in a pos Honda 4 door).

My choice - the Mazda 3. Seems like the best deal going if you want new, but simple
 
What's wrong with a fancy car? I mean I understand if you want a basic appliance to get you from point A to point B, but if you're going to get a decent car, why get a basic model? I want to be comfortable in what I drive. My 96' Chevy truck had every option available except an electric seat for the passenger, might not have even been an option for that year. My current car has every option available. Not a single option it doesn't have and I'm very happy about that. I don't want to drive a penalty box, and be uncomfortable with cheap seats, and have my back sore. I already did that with my Camry. That was one of the main reasons I sold it, a road trip made my back and tailbone hurt from the hard as a rock seats.
 
Originally Posted By: spasm3
I hate that you can't get a 1/2 truck without carpet.


My 2014 F150 XL has rubber mat flooring and manual windows,
reasons why I custom ordered it while they had plenty of fully loaded models available on the lot.
 
I forget who also mentioned something along the same lines when it came to the market segment that wants a high quality car but a very basic trim line...they mentioned how MB offers just that in Europe...I personally would love to own a 3dr hatch VW Polo Basic model with the small TSI 1.4 Turbo and manual trans and just about everything else, but you CAN order high quality seats ala carte if you want, which I would want to do.
 
I remember back in the day you could truely order a vehicle just about however you wanted it. You wanted a 5.7l V8 with a manual, in work white with steel wheels and all vinyl interior? No problem, sign here.

I remember back in 03' I was pricing a brand new F150 for kicks and on their website I checked off the 'fog lamps' option, it immediately added on a $3,500 4x4 package. 99-03 F150's only got fog lights on 4wd models, even though the 2wd trucks rolled off the assembly line with the fog light harness clipped in place ready to be plugged in. I ended up buying a used 99' and adding on OEM fog lights this way.

Originally Posted By: Nick1994
What's wrong with a fancy car? I mean I understand if you want a basic appliance to get you from point A to point B, but if you're going to get a decent car, why get a basic model? I want to be comfortable in what I drive. My 96' Chevy truck had every option available except an electric seat for the passenger, might not have even been an option for that year. My current car has every option available. Not a single option it doesn't have and I'm very happy about that. I don't want to drive a penalty box, and be uncomfortable with cheap seats, and have my back sore. I already did that with my Camry. That was one of the main reasons I sold it, a road trip made my back and tailbone hurt from the hard as a rock seats.


This man has a point. There was a Jalopnik article not long ago about buying the base model of any car, and how looking at the blank switch panel inserts were reminders that 'if you would've worked harder, the seat heater switch would be here' and other analogies along those lines.

Saturn has always confused me with the way they optioned cars. The 96' I drive is suppose to be the upscale model, aside from the DOHC engine, it does have plush comfortable cloth seats, and cruise control. But that's it. It's a stick shift, which I like, but it's a non-ABS model, manual windows/locks, manual mirrors, tape player, and no sunroof. My friend has a 99' SL1 which is the base version. However, his rolled off the assembly line with cruise control, power windows, locks, and mirrors, an oem cd player, automatic transmission and ABS to boot. It's actually the only SL1 I've ever seen with ABS. Sure, he got stuck with the anemic 105hp SOHC engine and rock hard base seats (which I later swapped out for a set of SL2 seats).
 
Originally Posted By: mlatour
Originally Posted By: spasm3
I hate that you can't get a 1/2 truck without carpet.


My 2014 F150 XL has rubber mat flooring and manual windows,
reasons why I custom ordered it while they had plenty of fully loaded models available on the lot.


last time i tried, they all said it was not available. i guess they wanted to sell whats on the lot.
 
No modern cars are simple, MAFs and 02 sensors and feedback loops and logic gates and computer controlled systems are not simple, even of the car doesn't have any modcons, is still an advanced piece of technology.

For simple cars, look to the 80 or at the latest the early 90s, carbureted motors with points ignition are about the simplest vehicle you could wish to set eyes on
 
There are some cars and trucks still available as stripped units, but they are becoming more and more rare, and often (but not always) need to be located far away or ordered from OEM that way.

CAUTION - I'm ramping up on a rant here, so ignore if you choose.

I don't mind technology, but I do abhor the onset of total tech invasion into my life ...

Good things:
- fuel injection
- ABS (I like it, but I have no problems if it's absent, and actually have two vehicles that do not have it).
- A/C (one of the luxury items I'll not do without)
- power locks and windows (nice to have, but I do have two trucks with manual locks and windows right now and I'm OK with that).


Bad and/or over-priced, trouble prone, infuriating things:
- TPMS (how lazy have we become as a driving society that we cannot check air pressure once a month?)
- touch-screen eveything-run-by radio/climate/etc (Ford Sync, for example)
- RSC
- Back-up cameras
- automatic climate controls (Ford EATC, for example)
- dual zone systems (side to side)
- redundant climate systems (front to rear)
- Lane control / Lane departure tech
At some point, these gadgets are going to fail or be broken. And then they are expensive and a PITB to repair, especially for the DIY guys and gals. It may not happen to every vehicle, or every person, but the propensity of these things to break is much greater than simple devices.

My two MGMs have EATC, and I hate it. I tolerate the system because that is what came in the cars, and we bought well-cared-for used vehicles. If I had preference, I would ditch the EATC and just get a good ol' manual system.

I have had to replace door lock solenoides in vehicles before; never had to replace a manaul door lock. I have replaced power window motors before as well as door switches; but never had to replace a manual window "regulator".

My friend had a new F-150 with back-up camera in the tailgate. Worked great until he forgot about it and yanked the cord out when taking the 'gate off ... Sure, it was his fault, but it still was still expensive and something he really didn't "need" (not any more than the leather seats ... but I digress).

Another friend spent almost a $grand$ replacing an LCD screen in her vehicle, because it was the touch-screen control for the entire radio and HVAC package. It developed a crack in it for no apparent reason. Being an older unit, it was difficult to source and expensive to replace.

I rode in a car recently that scared to poo out of the driver and I because the warning system blared an imminent collision! Turns out the heavy rain and road mist fooled the sensors and it though we were going off road when it simply was the dense water vapor being sensed. After finally figuring out why this was intermittently happening over a duration of 12 miles or so, we were amused and irritated at the same time. Tech gone amok.

Heck, lots of cars don't even have knobs for control features any longer. They have "buttons" (typically push button or touch sensitive features). I hate that. I like a tactile device that I can reach for with little or no thought and physically turn (volume, tuning, temp, blower speed, etc). DID I MENTION I HATE TOUCH SENSITIVE BUTTONS! The only buttons I tolerate are the cruise-control ones on the wheel, because a knob makes no sense there.

If I am not mistaken, I believe BUCs (back up cameras) are going to be mandated by federal law, or already have been? More wiring, another device, and another display screen on every vehicle sold from here on out. Not unlike TPMS; more costs because lazy people make for unsafe drivers ... In fact, careless and lazy people are the reason for many of these "conveniences" due to safety concerns. TPMS, RSC, ABS, BUCs are all answers to folks that cannot seem to control their vehicles and need electro-mechanical intervention.



It is a free market and therefore many convenience items do sell well. Almost, IMO, too well. So well that OEMs and dealers have found that packaging groups make for great profit drivers! Want feature "X"? It only comes in package "Y" as a $1900 upgrade. Buy or live without. This is a benefit to the OEM in two ways:
1) reduces per-unit complexity of build at the assembly process
2) forces many into "upgrading" (more profit margin)
I have no problem that some folks want super fancy stuff; great for them. But it's become such a prominent issue that there are very few inexpensive vehicles due to all the luxury and safety features.



Sorry - rant over.




.
 
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
...
Bad and/or over-priced, trouble prone, infuriating things:
- TPMS (how lazy have we become as a driving society that we cannot check air pressure once a month?)
- touch-screen eveything-run-by radio/climate/etc (Ford Sync, for example)
- RSC
- Back-up cameras
- automatic climate controls (Ford EATC, for example)
- dual zone systems (side to side)
- redundant climate systems (front to rear)
- Lane control / Lane departure tech
.


- TPMS: It's not laziness, TPMS is mandated in the US for vehicles made from MY2008 and later by the TREAD Act which was signed into law by Clinton.
- Touch screens: I agree, touch-screens are just asking for future issues with the digitizers.
- Back-up cameras: Get used to Back-up cameras. They are mandated on all vehicles made after 1 May 2018. I personally like them and I have never had any issues besides a dirty lens with ours.
- Automatic/Dual-climate zones: I personally love automatic climate controls and especially dual-climate zones. My wife likes her zone 5-10 degrees warmer and I like it cooler. I've personally had 5 vehicles with dual-zones and I have never had any issues with them. We've kept every one of them beyond 150-200K miles and the only issues I ever had with the climate control systems was in my GM cars (bearings in in the blower would fail after 60K miles or so).
- Lane control/departure tech: My family has one Ford and one Subaru with the blind-spot warning systems and I think they are great. The Ford system has been 100% reliable and comes in handy for city driving. The Subaru is too new to know if it will have issues but it seems good so far. These systems are usually an option or are on the high-end tech packages. If you don't like these don't buy the high-end tech package.
 
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Someone here at work purchased a rust free, accident free one owner 1963 Volvo 122 4-door wagon and went though it from front to back reworking, rebuilding and replacing everything that needed attention including upholstery, headliner, carpets and complete paint job and undercoating on a stripped body and then all new weather stripping and window seals. He also did the engine, transmission, overdrive, differential, drive shaft and suspension, brake and fuel lines, radiator, heater core and all coolant hoses, Vintage Air, new factory wiring harness, powder coated the bits and pieces and installed new tires and shocks.

This car is simple, robust and parts availability is excellent. All his expenses, everything including the car he started with cost him $25,100.00 not counting his time and labor. This car looks and runs like a brand new car with a stunning paint job and will never have to be smogged here in California. He knows how to fix, adjust and maintain everything on this car.

He did all this because of a new Ford he purchased that became a shop queen, a car that he finally got rid of it through the lemon law process. He had to go to war with the dealer during the process of fixing things from one end of the car to the other. The dealer treated him like an ignorant child and told him whoppers about why this and that failed and what they were doing to resolve problems. He kept a detailed journal and copies of every estimate and work order with lots of photos. He carefully documented everything. Reading this journal was a hoot and I think it helped to get the factory to cooperate during the legal proceedings.

He finally agreed that Ford did him a favor with the level of their quality control and dealer service and communication with customers and he now owns and drives a simple, reliable vehicle.

His car building adventure has prompted several other here to start their own car restoration projects and he has become their mentor. If you have some skills, the space and some time it's an interesting alternative to a new car purchase.
 
I don't think there are simple cars anymore. Don't delude yourself into thinking that something with crank windows is "simple". Pretty much all cars today are equipped with electronics that would embarrass a 10 or 15 year old "technowonder". Engines have very sophisticated controls, both directly and indirectly supporting new emissions requirements. All of those controls are driven by electronic sensors. A modern chassis, too, has a whole passel of electronic sensors for various required systems (ABS, stability control, TPMS, etc).

I'm not necessarily "for" or "against" many of these things, but I think people believe that something with a window crank and manual seat slider means you're getting something without electronics to break, and that's not necessarily the case.
 
Originally Posted By: spasm3
I hate that you can't get a 1/2 truck without carpet.


So all those carpet delete options on the configurators are just there for fun?
 
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