Holy Purolator Flip Flop!

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This is all talk lets stop arguing. someone just do a standard deviation probability test already.

Anyway like i said 4 pages and 12 hours ago keeping track of who finds tears on which model numbers could actually be useful here.
 
Originally Posted By: 00firebird
This is all talk lets stop arguing. someone just do a standard deviation probability test already.

Anyway like i said 4 pages and 12 hours ago keeping track of who finds tears on which model numbers could actually be useful here.


Be my guest. Too bad there wasn't a sticky thread where everyone who's found a media tear in a Purolator could post it there.

Mods ... could you make a thread like that a sticky in this forum for that purpose if someone started it?
 
There are two ways to look at this; anecdotal and statistical.

As far as anecdotal observations go, there is possibililty that an increased rate of failure events is occuring.
As far as statistic analysis goes, there is a yet unknown probability value that is waiting to be discovered.

As a statistical process quality control engineer, I have to agree with Wilhelm and Hyde. There are too many variables that are not understood, and far too many open-ended quantifications that are not bound.

What we see is that there are media failures that are popping up in Puro and Wix filters. But we don't know what the sample rate or sample direction is. Once an event happens, it draws focus to that direction. Folks start cutting open more Puros because they are LOOKING for Puro failures; it predisposes the rate because of bias.

There's been a suggestion to do a "standard deviation probability test" ... Here's what I see as issues to overcome:
- I, for one, have ZERO idea of the market density of each brand; how many filters for any given application does Fram, Puro, Wix, Champ, etc sell? Until I would know that, I have no ability to decide what a statistical sample quantity would be.
- I, for one, have ZERO idea of the BITOG filter density of each brand; how many of each brand does the average member consume?
- I, for one, have ZERO idea of how the BITOG population relates to the overall vehicle market population; how many BITOGers have access to direct filter autopsy analysis versus the open market? Are we even going to define the open market as the USA, North America, the World, or what?????
- I, for one, have ZERO idea of the sampled failure rate; while the failures seem to be prominent, how does this factor in with the population of BITOGers that cut filters to begin with?
- I, for one, have ZERO idea of the sampled success rate; how many are cut open and found to be fine, and so they go unreported?
- I, for one, do not have the time or funds to expend to capture the needed data; it would be prohibitively expensive for me to do this alone. I doubt I would be given access to the raw data for sales, distribution, nor the reports of failures gleaned by OEMs. Further, even voluntary cooperative data (member data) would need to be scrutinzed to a very deep level. Too much effort; too little reward. It's not like anyone is going to pay me to do this here ...



I agree that an ANECDOTAL notation could infer some previous (perhaps ongoing) failure rate has escalated in some brands. But I disagree that we have anything substantial to base a conclusion on. And we likely never will.

What each member is left with is the ability to make decisions based upon anecdotal views, because true data is missing for any logical and rational conclusion. In the absence of true data, that's all we're left with. And that's fine for many. But it's false to state otherwise with an expectation of impunity .

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Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
So tell me why if 100 people here on BITOG each cut open one Purolator oil filter, and 10 of those people found the filter's media was torn, why wouldn't you think 100 other random people not members of BITOG cutting open one Purolator oil filter each wouldn't find a similar failure rate.

The problem is that we don't know if 100 people, or 1,000 people, on BITOG have cut open one Purolator oil filter. The process isn't random.

If you look at the number of subscribers and the number of posters it becomes apparent that only a tiny fraction actually engage in on-line conversations.

It might well be that there are thousands of BITOG subscribers using Purolator-made filters, cutting them open, finding no problems, and simply not reporting that.

The nature of the selection favors those who want to demonstrate problems, since "A-OK" is not a very interesting post, and so we know going in that we've a bias in the sample.

So far I have not read anything that would affect my choice of filters. I have one Purolator-made filter on the garage shelf, a Bosch 3312, and when it comes up in the rotation I will be using it with absolutely no concern.
 
It is clear this issue bothers some people while other people dont seem to mind. I for one have mentioned several times that I returned all of mine. Does it make me wrong or right? Its my opinion and thats all that matters.

That being said, do what you will. This wont be the first time in BITOG history that 2 people disagree.
 
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Originally Posted By: sayjac
Quote:
....Was in the store last month and checked the pure 1s and the syn filters,, all of them had paint flecks inside...

Inside what, the box? Pics or didn't happen.

And to be accurate, the US made Mann's some sold at AAP, are made by Purolator. The ones made overseas are not made by Purolator.


The first rule of BITOG filter failure seems to be...the more a filter fails (or the worst the failure is), the less likely a picture will be taken of it.

This was true back in the early days of BITOG. And even though now camera phones are ubiquitous, i's still the case. I've I always wondered why this is.

Back in the day it was Fram...now apparently it's Purolater.
 
Slightly off-topic:

Does anyone know whether any (Purolator-made) Motorcraft filters have been seen with this tearing issue? I am kinda married to Motorcraft for my Ford products, but if those filters are having the same issues I might have to seek alternatives.
 
X2 have yet to see a single media issue posted on a Motorcraft, just a metal endcap or two that popped off.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
A big non-issue.


IMO, not totally the case. If torn media goes down into the engine's oiling system, it certainly could be an issue. Since Purolator uses a metal center core, that doesn't seem to be happening. Still possible that some small fibers do get flushed past the filter and in to the engine, as any kind of fibrous material that rips/tears will slough off some particles.


Totally agree with Z here---oil will take the path of least resistance, and least resistance is right thru the tear, not solid media
 
Full time partial bypass, no extra charge!
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Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
So tell me why if 100 people here on BITOG each cut open one Purolator oil filter, and 10 of those people found the filter's media was torn, why wouldn't you think 100 other random people not members of BITOG cutting open one Purolator oil filter each wouldn't find a similar failure rate.

The problem is that we don't know if 100 people, or 1,000 people, on BITOG have cut open one Purolator oil filter. The process isn't random.

If you look at the number of subscribers and the number of posters it becomes apparent that only a tiny fraction actually engage in on-line conversations.

It might well be that there are thousands of BITOG subscribers using Purolator-made filters, cutting them open, finding no problems, and simply not reporting that.

The nature of the selection favors those who want to demonstrate problems, since "A-OK" is not a very interesting post, and so we know going in that we've a bias in the sample.


That really doesn't answer my question, because there isn't a rational answer to say that only guys on BITOG that happen to cut open oil filters are the guys who get bad Purolator filters with media tears.

It would be like saying only the guys who hang out on one specific Corvette Forum have their valve springs fail on their 2002 & 2003 C5 Z06s. Fact is, anyone with a 2002 or 2003 Z06 could experience valve spring failure, and way more have reported than most "statistical analysis" people had thought was happening in the beginning when the problem being noticed.

So what I'm saying is that even though the BITOG reported failures seems to be a very small sample group, IMO it still has some decent validity to seeings what's been going on with the media tearing issue. IMO, it's not in the noise level, it's a more significant failure rate than that.

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D

So far I have not read anything that would affect my choice of filters. I have one Purolator-made filter on the garage shelf, a Bosch 3312, and when it comes up in the rotation I will be using it with absolutely no concern.


As I've said before, nobody that I can recall has posted any media tears in any "Purolator made" brands, such as Motorcraft, Bosch, etc. It only seems to be the Purolator Classic and PureOne filters with the metal crimped media seam.

But I'm sure if you used a Classic or PureOne and cut it open and saw media tears your perspective would change real fast about using those specific filters.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
That really doesn't answer my question, because there isn't a rational answer to say that only guys on BITOG that happen to cut open oil filters are the guys who get bad Purolator filters with media tears.

You haven't presented a question to answer. You've presented an argument in favor of a hypothesis.

There is not enough objective information for you to reach any conclusions that could be projected onto the universe of Purolator filters. No amount of speculation is going to turn anecdotal evidence into something statistically meaningful.

Nothing prevents you from reaching some personal conclusions as to whether or not you wish to use Purolator filters.
 
Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
That really doesn't answer my question, because there isn't a rational answer to say that only guys on BITOG that happen to cut open oil filters are the guys who get bad Purolator filters with media tears.

You haven't presented a question to answer. You've presented an argument in favor of a hypothesis.

There is not enough objective information for you to reach any conclusions that could be projected onto the universe of Purolator filters. No amount of speculation is going to turn anecdotal evidence into something statistically meaningful.

Nothing prevents you from reaching some personal conclusions as to whether or not you wish to use Purolator filters.


The bottom line is that gut feelings and intuition based on less than "ideal statistical data" is still usually right. I've seen it happen many times in cases just like this.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
The bottom line is that gut feelings and intuition based on less than "ideal statistical data" is still usually right.

It appears to be what you base your decisions on in any case.
 
It was asked earlier whether or not Motorcraft filters had the same issues.. Aren't Mopar filters made by Purolator as well?

Im cutting mine up tomorrow with about 5100ish miles on it. I cant wait to look.
 
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
It was asked earlier whether or not Motorcraft filters had the same issues.. Aren't Mopar filters made by Purolator as well?


No issues posted with Motorcraft media that I'm aware of. Classics seem to be the worst offenders. The last Mopar filter I bought a while back was a Puro but I've seen some recent posts that speculated they were now being made by Wix.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
....What we see is that there are media failures that are popping up in Puro and Wix filters. But we don't know what the sample rate or sample direction is. Once an event happens, it draws focus to that direction. Folks start cutting open more Puros because they are LOOKING for Puro failures; it predisposes the rate because of bias....

I agree that an ANECDOTAL notation could infer some previous (perhaps ongoing) failure rate has escalated in some brands. But I disagree that we have anything substantial to base a conclusion on. And we likely never will.

What each member is left with is the ability to make decisions based upon anecdotal views, because true data is missing for any logical and rational conclusion. In the absence of true data, that's all we're left with. And that's fine for many. But it's false to state otherwise with an expectation of impunity ........

Well said. Those that read this board can make 'inferences' based on the dissection pics posted here. And reach their own conclusion and make decisions based on those anecdotes. But with the Bitog non random sample and a sample size too small, reaching a conclusion based scientific data using the scientific method is not possible with what's been presented here. That much is indisputable.

Beyond that as dnewton notes, "What each member is left with is the ability to make decisions based upon anecdotal views." And clearly as this thread demonstrates, not everyone will make the same decision or reach the same conclusion. And to me, that's ok.
 
Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
The bottom line is that gut feelings and intuition based on less than "ideal statistical data" is still usually right.

It appears to be what you base your decisions on in any case.


In this case, I'm betting my view on what's going on is more than just a handful of trivial media failures that just so happened to land in the hands of BITOG members who cut open oil filters. Don't need no stinking "statistics" to see it.
grin.gif
 
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