Holy Purolator Flip Flop!

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Honestly, I think Puro is beginning to show some trending for failures here.

Purolator makes and sells millions of oil filters under a variety of names.

A half dozen or so non-random samples on BITOG can't demonstrate a trend in that large a universe.

It does seem to illustrate the lemming effect in special interest discussion groups. It sort of reminds me of the vilification of Mobil some years ago based on one sample of one weight of one model of their Mobil 1 motor oil.

I recommend chill pills all around.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
And the WCOD strikes again .... Quick - everyone jump on the Fram bandwagon!


Honestly, I think Puro is beginning to show some trending for failures here. Admittedly this is PURELY anecdotal at this point, but we're seeing memebers find this kind of failure mode more frequently. It's completely plausible to think that Puro had (has) a problem. They are not immune to the world of manufacturing defects. Where it began and for how long we'll see it run is anyone's guess.



Well said. I decided a long time ago that you cannot just pick Brand A and assume that forever from then on, it will be better than Brand B. I used to be a die-hard Wix user... until I had a long string of them that tended to drain back badly overnight. Had a great run with P1, but now I'm much more cautious. Currently I'm convinced that any filter with wire-backed media is worth the price premium- Fram Ultra, Puro Synth, Royal Purple, etc. Makes me wonder why unbacked fiber media have been in use so very long in the first place.

Also, even if Purolator has, finds, and fixes a manufacturing issue, there'll be a lot of back stock that will take a long time to clear the shelves. Last weekend, for example, I picked up a new-in-box Fram XG8A (Ultra XG8A predecessor) complete with Honeywell ownership on the label. And this was at a very high-volume Pep Boys, and they still had several more of those on the shelves in some sizes. How many years are we beyond Honeywell being involved with Fram?

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Makes me wonder why unbacked fiber media have been in use so very long in the first place.

Working well probably has something to do with it.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Honestly, I think Puro is beginning to show some trending for failures here.

Purolator makes and sells millions of oil filters under a variety of names.

A half dozen or so non-random samples on BITOG can't demonstrate a trend in that large a universe.

It does seem to illustrate the lemming effect in special interest discussion groups. It sort of reminds me of the vilification of Mobil some years ago based on one sample of one weight of one model of their Mobil 1 motor oil.

I recommend chill pills all around.


Basically, what you are saying is that you think of a very small percentage of bad Purolator filters in the world, it just so happens that most of them have been bought and used by BITOG members who just happen to cut them open. And the rest of the world who bought Purolator filters got all the good ones. Do you know the odds of that?

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Do you know the odds of that?

Given the very small non-random sample, the odds can't be calculated.

If you construct an actual random sample which extends beyond BITOG and includes individuals without a stake in the discussion, then we can do some calculations.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: andrewp1998
Mann is now made by Purocraptor!



I don't think that is true. They indicate on their boxes and website that they are part of the Mann-Hummell group. No mention of Purolator nor does Purolater mention on their site.

I may be mistaken...but if you can prove it I would like to see.

 

[GMBoy]

Hold on you may be right about the purolator relationship - found this:

https://www.mann-hummel.com/en/corp/news/news/newsdetail/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=295

 

[possum328]

So far 2 out of the 3 Puros I have used and cut open showed tear failures. Lemming effect???

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Hold on you may be right about the purolator relationship - found this:

https://www.mann-hummel.com/en/corp/news/news/newsdetail/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=295

American-made Mann-Hummels are Purolators.

Outside the USA Mann-Hummel has other production facilities, often as joint ventures with local manufacturers.

Mann-Hummel Worldwide locations

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: possum328
So far 2 out of the 3 Puros I have used and cut open showed tear failures. Lemming effect???


I don't think so. But a couple people in this discussion thinks the media tearing issue is just a fluke and not a big deal because by some miracle of astronomical odds, only the bad Purolators are bought by members of BITOG and all the good filters that don't tear are bought by non-members.

IMO, there is enough filter cutting and inspection going on here to represent a good sampling of what's going on with the filters on the market.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: possum328
So far 2 out of the 3 Puros I have used and cut open showed tear failures. Lemming effect???

The fact that you've decided to cut them open at all is taking place because you're involved in BITOG. I don't know what "tear failure" means. Any cellulose filter media from time to time gets pinholes or small "tears". Whether that's a "failure" depends on whether the filtration was seriously compromised.

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
But a couple people in this discussion thinks the media tearing issue is just a fluke and not a big deal because by some miracle of astronomical odds, only the bad Purolators are bought by members of BITOG and all the good filters that don't tear are bought by non-members.

Apparently the concepts of random sample, universe, sample defects, and the like are not to your liking. There are no "astronomical odds", in fact there are no odds at all.

There are thousands of BITOG subscribers, some portion of which are using Purolator filters, or one of the several brands made by Purolator such as Motorcraft, Bosch, Mann, and so on.

I don't see Ford, who sources their Motorcraft filters from Purolator, sending out service bulletins on filter media failures to their dealers.

I personally do not make decisions without sufficient information, and I certainly do not project massive problems based on a few reports.

 

[Hyde244]

^ +1 Wilhelm_D. Well said.

^^ As I mentioned in the other Purolator tear thread ZeeO (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3339878#Post3339878), it is very difficult to descern any meaning out of the small sample of filter openings that are posted to BITOG.

Let's say BITOG where to post 15 Purolator filter openings. That would be .000000035% of the 425 million oil filters used in the U.S. annually.

Of course, Purolator doesn't make all of the oil filter in the U.S., so if we were to assume Purolator produced 1 million oil Purolator Classic filters annually, BITOG would still only have 0.000015% of all Purolator Classic filters produced that year.

This is not a representative sample.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: possum328
So far 2 out of the 3 Puros I have used and cut open showed tear failures. Lemming effect???

The fact that you've decided to cut them open at all is taking place because you're involved in BITOG. I don't know what "tear failure" means. Any cellulose filter media from time to time gets pinholes or small "tears". Whether that's a "failure" depends on whether the filtration was seriously compromised.

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
But a couple people in this discussion thinks the media tearing issue is just a fluke and not a big deal because by some miracle of astronomical odds, only the bad Purolators are bought by members of BITOG and all the good filters that don't tear are bought by non-members.

Apparently the concepts of random sample, universe, sample defects, and the like are not to your liking. There are no "astronomical odds", in fact there are no odds at all.

There are thousands of BITOG subscribers, some portion of which are using Purolator filters, or one of the several brands made by Purolator such as Motorcraft, Bosch, Mann, and so on.

I don't see Ford, who sources their Motorcraft filters from Purolator, sending out service bulletins on filter media failures to their dealers.

I personally do not make decisions without sufficient information, and I certainly do not project massive problems based on a few reports.


In your analysis of this issue, keep in mind that all the other brands that Purolator manufactures could have different media used and manufacturing processes used, which could be the reason you don't see media failures in those "made by Purolator" filters.

From what it looks like so far, only certain Purolator brand filters have this media tearing issue. Specifically, the models with the metal crimped seam.

So take only those model of filters and apply your "failure statistics". I've seen this type of thing unfold on other failure issues with vehicles/products and it always starts out low and slow, and as time goes on the failure rate initially based on "a small sample group of data" (like here) does indeed show it was a larger problem going on than originally thought. IMO, that's what this media tearing issue is unfolding to be also based on the data seen here on BITOG.

 

[Hyde244]

^ It could very well be one of the manufacturers for the supply chain of Purolator Classics has been at fault. It could also be that Purolator has been sourcing its cellulosic fiber from elsewhere recently for the media.

We simply do not have enough information to know.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Hyde244

Let's say BITOG where to post 15 Purolator filter openings. That would be .000000035% of the 425 million oil filters used in the U.S. annually.

Of course, Purolator doesn't make all of the oil filter in the U.S., so if we were to assume Purolator produced 1 million oil Purolator Classic filters annually, BITOG would still only have 0.000015% of all Purolator Classic filters produced that year.

This is not a representative sample.


I look at it like this. Of the 1 million Purolator oil filters made per year, lets say BITOG members buy 0.002% (2,000 filter), and of those members only 20% of them cut open the filters for inspection. That's 400 Purolator filters cut open per year. Of those cut open, 20 per year show failures. Now you have a sample failure rate of 20/400 = 5%. That's a huge failure rate, not one any company would want, or any customer would want to use.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Hyde244
^ It could very well be one of the manufacturers for the supply chain of Purolator Classics has been at fault. It could also be that Purolator has been sourcing its cellulosic fiber from elsewhere recently for the media.

We simply do not have enough information to know.


Whatever it is ... it's very apparent something is wrong. If it was such a super low failure rate (in the noise level), then we would not be seeing a flourish of media tears posted here.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
In your analysis of this issue, keep in mind that all the other brands that Purolator manufactures could have different media used and manufacturing processes used, which could be the reason you don't see media failures in those "made by Purolator" filters.

If someone wants to undertake an actual study of oil filters in any controlled way that would yield statistically valid data for our consideration, I would be quite interested in seeing the results.

Quote:
That's a huge failure rate, ....

You don't have a failure rate. You don't know the size of the population. You don't have a statistically valid sample. You have some anecdotes.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
You don't have a failure rate. You don't know the size of the population. You don't have a statistically valid sample. You have some anecdotes.


At least my viewpoint/anecdotes have more logical number estimates than some others here.

Do you really think only BITOG members who cut open Purolator filters magically get only the filters that have media tears in them? That would be like only BITOG members who have a filter cutter would have disproportionate odds of winning the mega millions lottery.

 

[Sayjac]

Quote:
....Was in the store last month and checked the pure 1s and the syn filters,, all of them had paint flecks inside...

Inside what, the box? Pics or didn't happen.

And to be accurate, the US made Mann's some sold at AAP, are made by Purolator. The ones made overseas are not made by Purolator.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Do you really think only BITOG members who cut open Purolator filters magically get only the filters that have media tears in them?

I think I know the difference between a statistically valid sample and some anecdotes.