Harbor Freight Tools

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


First word nations like Germany, Japan, Australia....etc all have similar costs of living to our own. .....


No disrespect intended, but so what? If I'm unemployed, what difference does it make to me where my job went? I'm still looking for a job.



You honestly think some guy at BMW stole a job from a guy working at GM or Ford?

That some guy from Stahlwille stole a job from somebody at Snap-On?

Nobody is out-sourcing to Germany, Japan, France, England....etc to exploit their cheap labour. Because labour in those places isn't cheap.

It is companies like Sears that are out-sourcing the Craftsman name to China, moving all those jobs to places like China to increase their bottom line that is one fork of this issue.

And people certainly aren't going and buying BMW's over a Ford because they are a small fraction of the price. Which is exactly what is going on at places like HF with their imported tools.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
Factories are increasing payments to workers. Governments are raising minimum wages.

The incomes of factory workers are still low compared to the workers in United States and Europe. The hourly earning in southern China is only about 80 cents per hour.

The workers from rural provinces usually earn about US$200 a month, working six or seven days a week.


Your talking about the high end not average workers. 80 cents an hour or $50 a week for 6 or 7 days work is a slave!

 

[Sayjac]

Quote:
Quote:
Well IMHO, what a bunch of tripe. "Treachorous" as in dishonest, disloyal, traitorous and treasonable? SHAME on you, for even implying or suggesting that of a veteran and poster here

Did i mention any names?
Of course its treacherous to buy and therefor support someone bend on ruining the countries economy. Thats anyone not just veterans.
I am a veteran, that and $2 will get me a coffee at DD. I don't want or expect any thanks for serving, i enlisted and got paid. It certainly has nothing to do buying HF junk.

No, you carefully didn't, didn't have to. Afaik, only one "veteran" commenting/posting that fit the comment's profile. My comment stands. As for your 'opinion' regarding HF consumers being treacherous, it's just that.

Once upon a time the owner posted that threads that turn and focus on a product's country of origin would not be permitted. This is why. Apparently not applicable now.

 

[mechanicx]

Well anyway running continously back to HF to replace broken tools that didn't work right before it broke is no value. Does HF really stand behind what they sell? If a tool breaks and you don't have the packaging or receipt will they give you a no hassle replacement to break again or what about a refund? Am I wrong in my impression that these tools get broken and thrown away and bought again and the time and gas running to HF is not a good value?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: jcwit
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Considering the sky rocketing cost of shipping long distances with the increasingly cost of oil, the cost benefit of making goods in slave wage China is quickly going away.


Th average annual income in china is $14,000 per year check here.

http://www.averagesalarysurvey.com/article/average-salary-in-china/15201531.aspx

While not up to U.S. standards its far from slave labor.

Remember they are now the largest auto market in the world.



Do you honestly think the serfs in China making your HF tools are salaried workers and not paid hourly wages?

 

[Tdbo]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Quote:
.....Every veteran AFAIK swears an oath to protect the country from all enemies foreign and domestic, supporting the Chinese in any way is treacherous by providing aid to the enemy IMHO.

Well IMHO, what a bunch of tripe. "Treachorous" as in dishonest, disloyal, traitorous and treasonable? SHAME on you, for even implying or suggesting that of a veteran and poster here.

I thank jcwit for his service, and if he chooses to shop at HF for his reasons, then that's his business and his right. One that he fought/served for.

I'm not sure why this thread hasn't been locked yet, it so now so far off topic. While after three pages, one about MLM schemes, gets locked before it "blows up."

+1
This has really turned into a (self censored) cluster!
Now a disabled American veteran is "Treacherous" because some people don't like where he buys his tools.
Why this thread has been allowed to go on with the multiple levels of disrespect shown is simply shameful.
BTW, I find it laughable that on this website on 11/16/10, a thread regarding the Chevy Aveo was closed because an inanimate object was "bashed" but people are allowed to continually trash someone who has served and made sacrifices for his country is allowed to be talked to like a dog.
I have thanked JC wit for his service and will do so again. He can go and buy his hammers anywhere he wants to as far as I'm concerned.
While I totally agree with the pro American manufacturing stance outlined here and try to purchase American goods whenever possible, I realize that others need to do what works for them.
I really don't give a (self censored) what anyone thinks of my stance. Leave the guy alone and talk about tools. This after all is supposed to be a tool thread.

 

[jcwit]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
Factories are increasing payments to workers. Governments are raising minimum wages.

The incomes of factory workers are still low compared to the workers in United States and Europe. The hourly earning in southern China is only about 80 cents per hour.

The workers from rural provinces usually earn about US$200 a month, working six or seven days a week.


Your talking about the high end not average workers. 80 cents an hour or $50 a week for 6 or 7 days work is a slave!


No I'm not talking about the high end. The overall average yearly wage for all of china comes out to $14,000 a year. Many make much more than that as do many make much less, just as here.

Just as the average here in the U.S. is approx $45,000, but of course that does not mean those who are unemployed are in the $45,000 bracket. And remember the national avg, of unemployed it around 8% but that does not take into consideration those who have now dropped off the rolls. Actual unemployment is estimated at around 18 to 25%.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: jcwit
Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
Factories are increasing payments to workers. Governments are raising minimum wages.

The incomes of factory workers are still low compared to the workers in United States and Europe. The hourly earning in southern China is only about 80 cents per hour.

The workers from rural provinces usually earn about US$200 a month, working six or seven days a week.


Your talking about the high end not average workers. 80 cents an hour or $50 a week for 6 or 7 days work is a slave!


No I'm not talking about the high end. The overall average yearly wage for all of china comes out to $14,000 a year.

Just as the average here in the U.S. is approx $45,000, but of course that does not mean those who are unemployed are in the $45,000 bracket. And remember the national avg, of unemployed it around 8% but that does not take into consideration those who have now dropped off the rolls. Actual unemployment is estimated at around 18 to 25%.


Sir, the link you posted cites average SALARIES. I am a salaried employee. My salary if reduced to hourly isn't even in the same ballpark as what the average hourly wage in this country is.

We are talking about two very different things here when discussing salaries and wages. They are not the same.

From the very link you posted, this statement is made:

Quote:

The hourly earning in southern China is only about 80 cents per hour.

 

[mechanicx]

Average wage doesn't mean much. The average wage in the US might be $45k but a lot of manufacturing jobs are down to $8-14/hr now. I've been hinting at it for awhile but it's not really labor cost that makes US goods expensive.

Anyway, can we get back to talking about HF tools. You can't discuss HF without discussing low quality and junkiness but so far no one has adressed my question.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


You honestly think some guy at BMW stole a job from a guy working at GM or Ford?

That some guy from Stahlwille stole a job from somebody at Snap-On?


Of course they have.

Any manufactured product imported into this market, is, by definition, a product that was not manufactured here, and diminishes our manufacturing base and labor pool.

Do you honestly think all those old 60's and 70's stereos were full of Siemens or Telefunken or Mullard vacuum tubes because they were better than RCA products? Of course not - they were just cheap because they were produced in cheaper labor nations in western Europe. That's just one example.

Our manufacturing base has been under constant erosion as long as I can remember. China is just the latest player.

Anyway, it's not their two dollar hammers that will kill us. It's our refusal to live within our means that will be our undoing.

 

[jcwit]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Anyway, can we get back to talking about HF tools. You can't discuss HF without discussing low quality and junkiness but so far no one has adressed my question.



OK, every H/F tool I have purchased has accomplished the tasks I wished it to do except 1. That was a vibratory tumbler tumbler that I was going to use to polish brass, bearings burned out on three of them and I got my money back and found a U.S. made unit with a chinese motor in the same price range. Did not know about the U.S. tumbler when I purchased the H/F ones.

I can say the same for the Craftsmen tools I've purchased over the years, but I did have a ratchet and a few sockets break which were replaced, no questions asked.

Same can be said for my SK Wayne tools and Snap-On tools, and inexpensive plyers I bought 30/40 years ago which were made in India.

But then I've never made my livelyhood using tools much. Always found it easier to tell others what to do.

 

[jcwit]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: jcwit
Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
Factories are increasing payments to workers. Governments are raising minimum wages.

The incomes of factory workers are still low compared to the workers in United States and Europe. The hourly earning in southern China is only about 80 cents per hour.

The workers from rural provinces usually earn about US$200 a month, working six or seven days a week.


Your talking about the high end not average workers. 80 cents an hour or $50 a week for 6 or 7 days work is a slave!


No I'm not talking about the high end. The overall average yearly wage for all of china comes out to $14,000 a year.

Just as the average here in the U.S. is approx $45,000, but of course that does not mean those who are unemployed are in the $45,000 bracket. And remember the national avg, of unemployed it around 8% but that does not take into consideration those who have now dropped off the rolls. Actual unemployment is estimated at around 18 to 25%.


Sir, the link you posted cites average SALARIES. I am a salaried employee. My salary if reduced to hourly isn't even in the same ballpark as what the average hourly wage in this country is.

We are talking about two very different things here when discussing salaries and wages. They are not the same.

From the very link you posted, this statement is made:

Quote:

The hourly earning in southern China is only about 80 cents per hour.


The very first sentence says "The average ANNUAL income is $14,000.

That is the average annual income for the whole country.

As with any average there is a higher point and lower point, its why they call it a bell curve.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
Now a disabled American veteran is "Treacherous" because some people don't like where he buys his tools.

NO thats not the case. Some people use the fact that being a veteran and having served in some way gives a pass to buying Chinese goods. This is not the first place or time i have heard this!

IMHO buying anything Chinese from anyone is treacherous by anyone, and i'm sorry but this applies to veterans also and i don't mean to single jcwit out.
What other word you you prefer? Again IMHO supporting a country who's leadership is bent on our financial (not political) demise is indeed treacherous not just wrong.

Agree or disagree thats my opinion.

Trav out.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


You honestly think some guy at BMW stole a job from a guy working at GM or Ford?

That some guy from Stahlwille stole a job from somebody at Snap-On?


Of course they have.

Any manufactured product imported into this market, is, by definition, a product that was not manufactured here, and diminishes our manufacturing base and labor pool.


But those companies DO manufacture products here! The X3 and X5 are made in the USA for the USA market. Honda, Toyota, Nissan....etc all have US-based assembly facilities.

Name one Chinese company that does this?

We are not outsourcing to Germany, American jobs at Ford are not being shipped overseas to Germany because it is less expensive to make things there. So no, nobody at Snap-On lost their job to Stahlwille, which cost even more than Snap-On here, and nobody at GM lost their job to somebody at BMW because BMW's are being dumped here. They aren't.

Quote:
Do you honestly think all those old 60's and 70's stereos were full of Siemens or Telefunken or Mullard vacuum tubes because they were better than RCA products? Of course not - they were just cheap because they were produced in cheaper labor nations in western Europe. That's just one example.

Our manufacturing base has been under constant erosion as long as I can remember. China is just the latest player.

Anyway, it's not their two dollar hammers that will kill us. It's our refusal to live within our means that will be our undoing.


It is our refusal to do anything about it along with refusing to live within our means, just like this thread indicates that will be our undoing.

Exercising our "right to shop" just to buy useless junk of inferior quality is just as bad as pretending we have the money to do it with.

 

[Vikas]

Are moderators on vacation? This topic should have been closed days ago.

What a urination contest :-(

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: jcwit
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: jcwit
Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
Factories are increasing payments to workers. Governments are raising minimum wages.

The incomes of factory workers are still low compared to the workers in United States and Europe. The hourly earning in southern China is only about 80 cents per hour.

The workers from rural provinces usually earn about US$200 a month, working six or seven days a week.


Your talking about the high end not average workers. 80 cents an hour or $50 a week for 6 or 7 days work is a slave!


No I'm not talking about the high end. The overall average yearly wage for all of china comes out to $14,000 a year.

Just as the average here in the U.S. is approx $45,000, but of course that does not mean those who are unemployed are in the $45,000 bracket. And remember the national avg, of unemployed it around 8% but that does not take into consideration those who have now dropped off the rolls. Actual unemployment is estimated at around 18 to 25%.


Sir, the link you posted cites average SALARIES. I am a salaried employee. My salary if reduced to hourly isn't even in the same ballpark as what the average hourly wage in this country is.

We are talking about two very different things here when discussing salaries and wages. They are not the same.

From the very link you posted, this statement is made:

Quote:

The hourly earning in southern China is only about 80 cents per hour.


The very first sentence says "The average ANNUAL income is $14,000.

That is the average annual income for the whole country.

As with any average there is a higher point and lower point, its why they call it a bell curve.


You did see the source for this data right? 514 Chinese people that filled out the salary entry form.

Quote:
*Note that these values are based on salary entries by our visitors and can be changed with more entries.

*snip*

The sources for reports are salary entries by visitors, and other sites on the Internet (Wikipedia, job offers sites). If you are looking for more detailed surveys, we recommend you to search salaries for your career and country.


The wage section I quoted is much more representative of what we are discussing in this thread. $0.80/hour.

 

[jcwit]

Originally Posted By: Trav
NO thats not the case. Some people use the fact that being a veteran and having served in some way gives a pass to buying Chinese goods. This is not the first place or time i have heard this!

IMHO buying anything Chinese from anyone is treacherous by anyone, and i'm sorry but this applies to veterans also and i don't mean to single jcwit out.


Well in my case it comes down to either having one or doing without. I prefer to have it. After all we're all using oil and gas from folks who call us infidels and wish to remove our heads.

 

[demarpaint]

Isn't some of what HF sells made in Taiwan too?

 

[jcwit]

Yup! That it is.

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


Interesting. I apply the same metric to everything I purchase, be it clothing, shoes, tools or car parts. I make solid attempts to purchase goods manufactured in first-world nations across the board.

Just bought my one son a nice set of US-made sneakers for example. I have jeans made in Canada or the USA.


I'm with you OVERKILL. Although TPTB don't want to admit it and would like to DISMISS this I believe there are many people in developed countries that use the same measuring stick. I do too.