Harbor Freight Tools

[Win]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


....
People don't go buy BMW's because they are cheaper than cars produced here. You don't see BMW and Mercedes cars being sold at the automotive equivalent of Walmart. It is a fools errand to equate the erosion of the middle class, people who by and large aren't buying bimmers and benzes with the out-sourcing of standard goods like tools, clothing, shoes....etc.

.....



I disagree, and this is why: The Jaguar I bought new in '04, after three or four years, depreciated to about the cost of an average new domestic car.

Guys on here brag all the time about how smart they are waiting to buy a car like that once it's depreciated. It's entirely plausible that these depreciated cars compete with, and displace sales of, new manufactured domestic cars. In the absence of actual evidence to the contrary, I'm unwilling to set aside my common sense and blindly accept the assertion that because these import cars are high priced, they do not displace domestic products. It may take longer, but it can, and probably does, still happen.

And after a few more years, they are indeed pocket change. I can buy old BMW's, Mercs, Jags, whatever, all day long for pocket change when they hit the second and third tier used car lots. They are still competing with domestic manufactured product, just in a different class at that time.

Look, I like imported cars. But I have no sense of doing something better for my nation by buying a car made in Coventry, instead of a car made in lower Wangchung. The only people I've helped are the people in the UK. Arguably, I've hurt my local economy worse by picking the higher priced object, because I sent a bigger boatload of money out of the country.

I'm not really a big fan of Chinese imports, and actually share some of the sentiment here that it is better to avoid them unless I have a good reason not to, even though it probably comes across otherwise.

But their stuff is not all junk. Some of it is pretty good, and getting better. An interesting discussion for sure.

 

[jcwit]

Originally Posted By: Win
But their stuff is not all junk. Some of it is pretty good, and getting better. An interesting discussion for sure.


Yup, some is getting better. Only look at your electronics be they TV's, computors, cell phones, your router, etc. etc.

Hey take a look at the latest digital camera's, those made for the ordinary citizen ie; Nikon, Cannon, etc., etc.

To all those claiming and telling all the rest of us to buy ONLY U.S. products,

Hey open a store selling ONLY U.S. products and see how far you get.

Best of luck.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


....
People don't go buy BMW's because they are cheaper than cars produced here. You don't see BMW and Mercedes cars being sold at the automotive equivalent of Walmart. It is a fools errand to equate the erosion of the middle class, people who by and large aren't buying bimmers and benzes with the out-sourcing of standard goods like tools, clothing, shoes....etc.

.....



I disagree, and this is why: The Jaguar I bought new in '04, after three or four years, depreciated to about the cost of an average new domestic car.

Guys on here brag all the time about how smart they are waiting to buy a car like that once it's depreciated. It's entirely plausible that these depreciated cars compete with, and displace sales of, new manufactured domestic cars. In the absence of actual evidence to the contrary, I'm unwilling to set aside my common sense and blindly accept the assertion that because these import cars are high priced, they do not displace domestic products. It may take longer, but it can, and probably does, still happen.

And after a few more years, they are indeed pocket change. I can buy old BMW's, Mercs, Jags, whatever, all day long for pocket change when they hit the second and third tier used car lots. They are still competing with domestic manufactured product, just in a different class at that time.

Look, I like imported cars. But I have no sense of doing something better for my nation by buying a car made in Coventry, instead of a car made in lower Wangchung. The only people I've helped are the people in the UK. Arguably, I've hurt my local economy worse by picking the higher priced object, because I sent a bigger boatload of money out of the country.

I'm not really a big fan of Chinese imports, and actually share some of the sentiment here that it is better to avoid them unless I have a good reason not to, even though it probably comes across otherwise.

But their stuff is not all junk. Some of it is pretty good, and getting better. An interesting discussion for sure.


OK, but here's the rub: Once a car is used, it is no longer a "domestic" or "foreign" purchase. This is a completely separate topic, because from what I've seen, people who buy used vehicles (like me) very rarely, if ever, buy new vehicles.

The demand or lack thereof for a Ford or Benz is based on the original purchaser, not some guy three owners later picking it up for 1/4 its value at a used car lot.

And please, don't equate my first-world argument (standard of living) with the mindset that buying a Benz is helping out Americans..... I know it isn't.

I think there is a marked difference between something like a high-end automobile that while having next to zero domestic content is not sold in any real volume, to something like a ratchet, of which they will sell millions and across a much broader demographic.

Put differently: I think the affect the German marques have on the domestic car market (note I'm not saying the Japanese

) is far, FAR less significant than the impact of a company like Stanley, a very American name, out-sourcing the production of their tools overseas and putting Americans out of work.

And your sentiment about not all Chinese sourced goods being junk is very true. A quick look at Apple, Lenovo, Cisco....etc show some very well made (of course with the necessary QC in place for this to be the case) products. But then they aren't being dumped for a couple of dollars at places like HF either. There is some relativity here.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: jcwit
Originally Posted By: Win
But their stuff is not all junk. Some of it is pretty good, and getting better. An interesting discussion for sure.


Yup, some is getting better. Only look at your electronics be they TV's, computors, cell phones, your router, etc. etc.

Hey take a look at the latest digital camera's, those made for the ordinary citizen ie; Nikon, Cannon, etc., etc.

To all those claiming and telling all the rest of us to buy ONLY U.S. products,

Hey open a store selling ONLY U.S. products and see how far you get.

Best of luck.


And that is exactly the defeatist "I don't give a rats [censored] because I've got mine" attitude that would cause a US-only store to fail.

This is a sociological problem, one that is probably going to have to get a LOT worse before people wake up.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

Everybody wants to think they are getting the "best deal", and since quality manufacturing done in North America costs money, to accommodate the price that Walmart wants to pay and still make money, the manufacturing gets shipped overseas. And consumer ignorance enables this.


The most ignorance is of alternatives. But it's not the customer's fault. The alternatives DO NOT ADVERTISE and are very hidden. It's up to us to prosletyze equivalent alternatives. Armstrong is the new Craftsman (USA), for all intents and purposes. Google will show you where to buy them... Amazon, McMaster-Carr. This forum is full of tool nerds and I barely hear about these alternatives.

If an alternative makes it to a big box store, it's taken an inefficent route full of middlemen, who slap a flag on the box and charge triple. I would avoid that feeling of being ripped off... at that cost.

I understand Menard's has a flyer with pages of just USA stuff... dandy, except we have no Menards in my region.

 

[bigmike]

I'm wondering if some poor schmuck in China is on an Internet chat board somewhere complaining that people are buying GM cars and it's ruining the economic wealth of his country due to loss of manufacturing jobs to the US, Canada, or Mexico?

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: jcwit
Originally Posted By: Win
But their stuff is not all junk. Some of it is pretty good, and getting better. An interesting discussion for sure.


Yup, some is getting better. Only look at your electronics be they TV's, computors, cell phones, your router, etc. etc.

Hey take a look at the latest digital camera's, those made for the ordinary citizen ie; Nikon, Cannon, etc., etc.

To all those claiming and telling all the rest of us to buy ONLY U.S. products,

Hey open a store selling ONLY U.S. products and see how far you get.

Best of luck.


But that's been my point. If a store shelf had a higher quality American product and next to it a similar but lower quality chinese product even a few cents less, most consumers would grab the the chinese product. Because after all it "looks" the same and who cares where and who made it. The chinese product is not a better value for various reasons. You seem to consider this a good thing and like most consumers don't care about quality or American jobs and economic loss. I do not think its A-ok. That's where I differ from you.

Now, I don't blame the consumer entirely or even the retailer. I blame trade policy. The chinese product shouldn't be on the shelf. In around about way you are saying are $500B or whatever it is up to now trade deficit with china is A-OK by you.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: ajchien
Originally Posted By: mechanicx


I realize you are obstensibly reporting your experience but I have a hard time believing Harbor Freight tools are more reliable than Craftsman. That hasn't been my experience at all. I have broken Craftsman sockets, but have never experience junk to level of some Harbor Freight tools. I sure get the sense you cheerlead HF

. Or are you saying is you bought a $2 hammer there that is rarely used and a tumbler and the tumbler was bad? Have you used HF rachets and sockets?


I must side with mechanix here. I've got a good number of tools from HF and craftsman. By far, there have been much more disappointment, breakage, warranty, wearing out, and overall regret with HF tools than compared to craftsman. Off the top of my head, maybe 15% of stuff from HF has been wasted money for me. Maybe 3% of my craftsman stuff has been wasted. It's too the point that when I buy from HF, I only buy when I need the tool soon - therefore if it's disappointing, I can return it and buy a different brand. Even then, some tools HF work a few times, and then wear down quickly. HF pliers are a prime example. But I don't want to bash HF too much, because they certainly do have some good tools at really cheap prices - like breaker bars, impact sockets ...

Actually, I tool buying algorithm goes something like this: for fun, scour flea markets, garage sales, and estate sales for classic truck brand tools for cheap. Don't need these per se, looking for good deals on something I might need ...

If I'm going to do something I need a tool for soon ... Price shop amazon, eBay, sears, home depot, and HF. Buy what's reasonable priced for me. Spending $10 for a KD brand online is preferable than $8 from HF. However, if it's $75 from Wright and $12 from HF, I'd buy the HF one - and see how it works and give it a chance first. If it sucks, it gets returned and I get the better brand.

If I need something NOW. It's craftsman, home depot, or HF - whatever makes sense, and who's open, and closest. I'm hoping it bails me out now. If so, I keep.


Some very good points. It's the questionable quality of chinese made products like tools and parts that gets me the most. So much time and effort has to be expended weeding through what is a good or bad value. It's just example of how cost cutting and maximizing profit passes a hidden cost on to the end user. It kind of deceptive.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: bigmike
I'm wondering if some poor schmuck in China is on an Internet chat board somewhere complaining that people are buying GM cars and it's ruining the economic wealth of his country due to loss of manufacturing jobs to the US, Canada, or Mexico?


When that poor schmuck has a $500B trade deficit with the US like we do with china and chinese factories close then maybe he'll have a valid complaint.

 

[bigmike]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: bigmike
I'm wondering if some poor schmuck in China is on an Internet chat board somewhere complaining that people are buying GM cars and it's ruining the economic wealth of his country due to loss of manufacturing jobs to the US, Canada, or Mexico?


When that poor schmuck has a $500B trade deficit with the US like we do with china and chinese factories close then maybe he'll have a valid complaint.


I'm not sure that the last 3 generations will ever believe that working in a factory is the highlight of their career. They've all been raised to think those jobs are beneath them. I think this is a bigger contributing factor to date.

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: eljefino


The most ignorance is of alternatives. But it's not the customer's fault. The alternatives DO NOT ADVERTISE and are very hidden. It's up to us to prosletyze equivalent alternatives. Armstrong is the new Craftsman (USA), for all intents and purposes. Google will show you where to buy them... Amazon, McMaster-Carr. This forum is full of tool nerds and I barely hear about these alternatives.

If an alternative makes it to a big box store, it's taken an inefficent route full of middlemen, who slap a flag on the box and charge triple. I would avoid that feeling of being ripped off... at that cost.

I understand Menard's has a flyer with pages of just USA stuff... dandy, except we have no Menards in my region.



This is my belief as well. The general public has been
DELIBERATELY edumacated to believe that "globalism" and
"globalization" is a positive thing. I'd say it has verged on a agressive brainwashing campaign by the powers that be.

I'm my opinion it's NO accident that joe schmoe is convinced that cheapest is best when buying anything.

Of course that brainwashing is certainly helped along when joe schmoe lost his good paying factory job and now makes 8-9 dollars an hour in the service industry or selling Chinese junk at Best Buy.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: bigmike
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: bigmike
I'm wondering if some poor schmuck in China is on an Internet chat board somewhere complaining that people are buying GM cars and it's ruining the economic wealth of his country due to loss of manufacturing jobs to the US, Canada, or Mexico?


When that poor schmuck has a $500B trade deficit with the US like we do with china and chinese factories close then maybe he'll have a valid complaint.


I'm not sure that the last 3 generations will ever believe that working in a factory is the highlight of their career. They've all been raised to think those jobs are beneath them. I think this is a bigger contributing factor to date.


But when a factory closes down, jobs are lost besides just on the production line, office and technical workers, service and even public sector. The whole economy takes a hit. Communities turn into ghost towns in some cases.

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx


But when a factory closes down, jobs are lost besides just on the production line, office and technical workers, service and even public sector. The whole economy takes a hit. Communities turn into ghost towns in some cases.


This has been going on in a major way for a few decades now or a bit more, somehow the subject of the "ripple effect" made it into the corporate media (by accident? LOL) and after it did I noticed that you constantly heard pundits and the presenters themselves tying to downplay the issue, even though I would consider it MORE of an issue than the initial factory closing down. Then as usual the MSM found ways to "forget" about this subject, hoping that as usual the average joe has a short memory and a "pea brain".

 

[sierrascout]

We have done this to ourselves! We feel entitled to a high paying job while paying very little for commodities. I respect the disabled veterans and I can understand there only being able to afford(or need) a Chinese tool. But to ridicule them for it, I do not see, and I lose respect for that person.

 

[JHZR2]

How hard is this??? - there was no ridicule.

My points were that if the tax paying base erodes, payments like pensions may get cut or go away, so pensioners must be considerate of the working, tax paying population.

Trav's points as I read them were that it does not matter who is doing it, it is equally as damaging to the nation and it's people.

Again, veteran status should never have been part of anyone's commentary, as it is entirely irrelevant. Being on a disabled veteran pension is no different than a non-vet being on disability, is no different than someone with a job, is no different than someone in the "1%". It all does the same damage, and people all make their decisions, right or wrong, regardless of status of any sort.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx

But that's been my point. If a store shelf had a higher quality American product and next to it a similar but lower quality chinese product even a few cents less, most consumers would grab the the chinese product.


But there are shades of gray! I was reading on garagejournal about a ratchet maker that puts Chinese guts in American handles, in America. They stopped engraving "USA" on the handle at about that point.

Where's the value added? You can find out on a new car its parts content percentage, but not many other things. If the Chinese make a DVD player that has a chip with licensed audio codecs from Dolby labs, some of that money goes to Dolby, which presumably hires engineers in first world countries. A DVD that goes in that player may be stamped in China but the intellectual property and 98% of its value are from Hollywood.

A $10 "Lights of America" flourescent fixture from walmart is made in America with a foreign ballast, presumably worth about $9.75, based on replacement costs and the flimsiness of the rest of the fixture.

There are flags all over its box, BTW.

I'm not arguing but just throwing some thought points out.

Here's another.

If you fix up clunkers, especially fuel efficient ones, in your driveway using imported tools, is this a net benefit? How about only if they displace mostly imported-content new cars?

 

[dwcopple]

my week old Harbor Freight wonder bar snapped like a twig today trying to pry a 2x4 off concrete floor that was held down with one concrete nail. Good thing it missed my buddy's eye...It's going back.

 

[jcwit]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Again, veteran status should never have been part of anyone's commentary, as it is entirely irrelevant. Being on a disabled veteran pension is no different than a non-vet being on disability, is no different than someone with a job, is no different than someone in the "1%". It all does the same damage, and people all make their decisions, right or wrong, regardless of status of any sort.


The Veteran status and being disabled has everything to do with the points I was attempting to make. It has to do with MONEY and how much is available to spend.

Get it MONEY and how much is available to spend.

That was the whole point.

I made bunches more while working but not so much now on disability. Its called lack of funds.

How in the heck can any one make it any clearer.

I know you missed it because if you would CAREFULLY read my posts it would be somewhat clear. Its a case of having a tool that does the job at a price point I can afford or doing completely without.

Vets getting a pension are far from the upper class that you seem to think they should be in.

Go to the VA Hospital and see for yourself.

Your attitude is unbelievable!

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: dwcopple
my week old Harbor Freight wonder bar snapped like a twig today trying to pry a 2x4 off concrete floor that was held down with one concrete nail. Good thing it missed my buddy's eye...It's going back.


I bought one a few years ago from HF and have beat the puddin out of it and it still is fine.

 

[jcwit]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
But that's been my point. If a store shelf had a higher quality American product and next to it a similar but lower quality chinese product even a few cents less, most consumers would grab the the chinese product. Because after all it "looks" the same and who cares where and who made it. The chinese product is not a better value for various reasons. You seem to consider this a good thing and like most consumers don't care about quality or American jobs and economic loss. I do not think its A-ok. That's where I differ from you.


You seem to be lacking in 3 basic skills that are usually taught in elementary school. 1. reading 2. comprehension 3. memory. Either that or you are so closed minded and stubburn to even attempt to understand someone elses view point.

Please read the following CAREFULLY You MIGHT see what you've been missing while skimming over posts which you wish to argue about. These are taken from my previous posts and are a copy and paste.

Here you go, REMEMBER, READ CAREFULLY


There may be no excuse for the price difference but in reality its there, like it or not. Check out the price difference between a Plumb 16 oz hammer "made in china" and a 16 oz. chinese no name hammer from H/F, Menards, or other outlet. Menards sold 16 oz chinese hammers a few weeks ago for $1.99 IIRC. Point made?

Now regarding if perchance if the prices were close, 20% or less as stated there would be a whole different picture, and yes I would go for the U.S. made tool.

Another case in point, I do a lot of reloading, I have reloaded for the past 50 years. I have every color of reloading equipment on my bench from Lee to Sinclair, some purchased new and some used. I now lean towards Lee simply pecause of price point and really the quality is very good, maybe not the prettiest but overall excellent quality. And again made in the U.S.A. Do I buy Smart Reloader or even recommend it, NO, ABSOLUTLY NOT, there prices are in the same ball park so there is no advantage at all to buy their products. For those of you not familiar with Smart Reloader it an imported product from an Italian company thats manufactured in china.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you get this now? Actually I doubt it, but hey I tried, more than I can say for a few others.