Great study on spark plugs and # of electrodes

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Originally Posted By: kschachn
Lol, Einstein and da Vinci were not "non-experts".


You have some gaps in education yourself. Da Vinci was a self taught genius and Einstein was a patent clerk by profession.
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
So the plug designers are missing out on some sort of benefit that they don't know about?

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Speaking of hacking off plugs, lots of people cut ground strap short, call it side gapped and swear by the benefits. I have never done it myself, but tempted.


If you had the remotest idea about spark ignition, kernel growth and access speed into the bulk gasses, you wouldn't be making such comments.

The designers know what they are doing, but they are stuck in a compromise world.

The mentioned partial side gap is a great plug...sharp edges, and full access for the kernel to the bulk gasses...a great spark-plug for igniting gasses (use to make them myself).

However sharp edges erode very very quickly, making it a short lived plug, in an era when people expect to leave them in for 50,000 miles.

Indexing plugs is a benefit in plug optimisation for a "regular design"...but completely impractical in a manufacturing of maintenance world.

Modern plug construction is more for going the distance distance than optimum spark plug design.

Look at the Bosch plus 4...rounded electrode surfaces aren't goo for sparks, they are good for long life...spark only ever jumps 1 electrode at a time, 4 just means that there's another surface when the other(s) wear out. location of the gap gives it not bad access to the gasses in say a pentroof chamber, not the best for a SBC.

The above isn't somethign that the designers don't know...they are stuck in a compromise world where 50,000 mile plug changes are the norm, and will sell many more OEM plugs that way.
 
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3324421/J_B_Heywood:_IC_Engine_Fundame#Post3324421

Page 389 onwards
 
+1 to Shannow's comments.

Had my part of the spark ignition study sometime ago, and this coordinates with my understanding fully.


Many thanks.

Q.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow

Look at the Bosch plus 4...


Funny that you mentioned that. It was after discovering that the previews owner of my kid's Yaris, removed the 120,000 mile long life iridium plug and replaced them with Bosch +4 plugs (somewhere near 60,000 miles) that got me interested in the science behind those bizarre multiple ground electrodes designs.

I still cannot wrap my head about the fact that the +4 gap is 1.6 mm and it's "one fits all."
 
Right. Cutting off/griding off/or otherwise removing the ground electrode is the way to go. And Einstein and da Vinci both would agree. Completely impractical you say? And yet, we should still do it? Which is it?

I do understand compromises in engineering. But which is it, do we leave it on or take it off?

And 50,000-mile spark plug changes? Even my old '99 and '00 cars go 100,000 miles.

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: kschachn
So the plug designers are missing out on some sort of benefit that they don't know about?
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Speaking of hacking off plugs, lots of people cut ground strap short, call it side gapped and swear by the benefits. I have never done it myself, but tempted.

If you had the remotest idea about spark ignition, kernel growth and access speed into the bulk gasses, you wouldn't be making such comments.

The designers know what they are doing, but they are stuck in a compromise world.

The mentioned partial side gap is a great plug...sharp edges, and full access for the kernel to the bulk gasses...a great spark-plug for igniting gasses (use to make them myself).

However sharp edges erode very very quickly, making it a short lived plug, in an era when people expect to leave them in for 50,000 miles.

Indexing plugs is a benefit in plug optimisation for a "regular design"...but completely impractical in a manufacturing of maintenance world.

Modern plug construction is more for going the distance distance than optimum spark plug design.

Look at the Bosch plus 4...rounded electrode surfaces aren't goo for sparks, they are good for long life...spark only ever jumps 1 electrode at a time, 4 just means that there's another surface when the other(s) wear out. location of the gap gives it not bad access to the gasses in say a pentroof chamber, not the best for a SBC.

The above isn't somethign that the designers don't know...they are stuck in a compromise world where 50,000 mile plug changes are the norm, and will sell many more OEM plugs that way.
 
Let me ask it this way. Exactly what am I missing out with my current plugs? Because I can tell you that after 100,000 miles, they still look OK when I replace them. So I don't think there is some sort of material deficiency with them, and 100,000 miles is not an onerous replacement schedule.

So are they inefficient? Am I getting high unburned hydrocarbons? Am I? I don't think so, my fuel economy seems fine. So what exactly is the problem?
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Right. Cutting off/griding off/or otherwise removing the ground electrode is the way to go. And Einstein and da Vinci both would agree. Completely impractical you say? And yet, we should still do it? Which is it?


Just grow up, re-read what I said, then look up the sort of plugs that they use in race engines, where ignition reliability, not 60,000 miles are what's needed.

Heck, even look up the Heywood textbook linked.

But grow up first
 
Thanks Shannow for the awesome explanation about the side gapped plugs. I've seen guys with plugs like that and I though there was a mechanical issue.
You basically covered everything in like 2 paragraphs.

Thank you very much. You've helped me put some confusion I had in the past,which I just compartamentalized and now after your post it all makes sense to me.
 
I'm thinking the conclusions from this paper are valid, as Formula One uses the no ground strap plugs:

spark_plug_formula1.jpg
 
^^^Indeed, but the relevance to ordinary cars is just not there.

There are a few small differences between a Formula One car and mine or yours, eh?
 
No ground strap to burn off means improved reliability for a race, rather than 100,000 miles of foul free operation.

It's compromise is that the spark is in the boundary layer area, rather than in the swirling mass in the chamber...the high swirl/tumble that is proportional to piston speed means that there is still plenty of movement locally 'though.

Another compromise for another set of reasons.
 
Here's what electrodes do to flame propogation (they get in the way).

Compared to the ultimate no electrode laser ignition

image15.jpeg
 
i tried surface gap plugs. but i couldn't spend a lot of time with them. but i did find out they did NOT like to much gasoline, they would fowl out in a hart beat. but loved propane. and i could run more ignition timing. on a stock mild dodge 318. they are rated as dead cold. I.E. NO heat range rating.
 
Surface gap plugs were developed for 2 stroke outboards with CDI, it takes the high kv of CDI to jump the gap. Some of the early CDI motorcycles had surface discharge plugs too, but were soon dropped for normal plugs.
 
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