GM SMALL PICKUPS WITH DIESEL

[addyguy]

Originally Posted By: BowNisPar
Not worth the cost, complication, and likely unreliability vs. A gasoline version. The dream of a diesel engine being the small, reliable, torquey, long lasting engine is not going to come true in America.


Agree 100%.

 

[HangFire]

Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Aluminum head. Not sure what to think of that.

I do know one thing... everyone I know that owns a late model pickup truck diesel has taken some long downtime and big hits in the pocketbook. If this one is actually reliable it could be a big hit, though.


2001 called for you, HangFire -- only 15 years late on the aluminum skepticism.

lol Not exactly skeptical, I just have no clue one way or another.
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam

With that said, I've been a long-time diesel advocate and fan. However, I cringe at the thought of owning one in a commuter (for the reason you listed above).

Yup, I'd love to have an affordable, reliable small displacement automotive diesel but am worried about reliability, not to mention the high price of diesel. I have a lot of experience with Kubota's and Yanmar's, love them, but they were not automotive engines.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: BowNisPar
Not worth the cost, complication, and likely unreliability vs. A gasoline version. The dream of a diesel engine being the small, reliable, torquey, long lasting engine is not going to come true in America.


Why ?

Do the laws of physics operate differently over there ?

 

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted By: ryansride2017
I'm not quite sure of what to make with the engine having a timing belt.


Didn't bother me with my 2006 Jeep Liberty Diesel with a VM Motori inline 4 motor with timing belt. Replaced at recommended interval along with idler pulleys. Belt was in pretty good condition. According to VM, the motor was designed with a B50 life of around 300,000 miles. We'll see. My son has the Jeep now. I figure the motor will outlast the vehicle. And the EPA sticker said the Highway mpg was 27. We consistently got 32+ mpg highway. My son has had similar results. And with diesel being the same price as gas in my area right now, having something like this is a winner.

Regarding that motor, everything I have dug up on the diesel going in the GM midsize pickups screams VM Motori. I cannot tell much is different between the motors. The GM version has a little higher rail pressure, a Honeywell VG turbo in place of the Garrett VG turbo on the Jeep, and a little bump up in HP and Torque. Same cast iron block, wet sleeved, DOHC setup. Same 2.8L displacement. But not surprising since GM has had a relationship with VM Motori for several years.

 

[hpb]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: BowNisPar
Not worth the cost, complication, and likely unreliability vs. A gasoline version. The dream of a diesel engine being the small, reliable, torquey, long lasting engine is not going to come true in America.


Why ?

Do the laws of physics operate differently over there ?


I'm guessing it's a fear of the unknown.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: hpb
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: BowNisPar
Not worth the cost, complication, and likely unreliability vs. A gasoline version. The dream of a diesel engine being the small, reliable, torquey, long lasting engine is not going to come true in America.


Why ?

Do the laws of physics operate differently over there ?


I'm guessing it's a fear of the unknown.


So far DPF's and high pressure pumps have not been cheap. Not every single one has failed, and I bet a majority make it to 150k--but there are too many stories of them not. The guts of the engine might go for a million miles, but all the pieces around them seem to fail.

Since typical American method of buying cars is to finance for five years, and to buy about as much as they can afford, a good deal of people are not sitting on several grand to do these repairs when they happen.

Now if we had fuel prices like the rest of the world, things would be much different.

 

[edyvw]

Considering what kind of diesels GM offered in Opel, I am bit skeptical.

 

[BowNisPar]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: BowNisPar
Not worth the cost, complication, and likely unreliability vs. A gasoline version. The dream of a diesel engine being the small, reliable, torquey, long lasting engine is not going to come true in America.


Why ?

Do the laws of physics operate differently over there ?


No, but emissions controls, higher priced fuel vs. gas, and more expensive maintenance all combine to make a small, personal use diesel truck rather unappealing in America. I'm happy they work better in your country.

certainly not a fear of the unknown, but rather a recognition of the known. but hey, they work outside the US, so I must be a dumb American.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: BowNisPar
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: BowNisPar
Not worth the cost, complication, and likely unreliability vs. A gasoline version. The dream of a diesel engine being the small, reliable, torquey, long lasting engine is not going to come true in America.


Why ?

Do the laws of physics operate differently over there ?


No, but emissions controls, higher priced fuel vs. gas, and more expensive maintenance all combine to make a small, personal use diesel truck rather unappealing in America. I'm happy they work better in your country.

certainly not a fear of the unknown, but rather a recognition of the known. but hey, they work outside the US, so I must be a dumb American.

I am on you with this. It is not "dumb American," it is law of the market. Cheap fuel does not require from average driver to be involved that much into mechanics of the engine. If fuel was 5-6 bucks a gallon, it would be a different story.
I want to buy Q7 diesel. Wife wants bigger car, I need AWD for skiing. It does not make sense for me to drive gasoline engine since it is an SUV, I need torque not HP. So TDI is natural choice. BUT, I would never recommend that engine to let's say someone like my wife, if I was not knowledgable about maintenance etc. of TDI engines. For example, husband of my wife's sister doe not know even what is oil filter (I showed him, he did not know what it is). He drives Honda Pilot. I told them: perfect car for you.

 

[Ramblejam]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
According to VM, the motor was designed with a B50 life of around 300,000 miles.


Cliff,

The inherent issue of quoting B50 figures is that, by nature, it's specifically focusing on average life to overhaul. In other words, dropping the pan or removal of cylinder heads. As you well know, it's not the internal components that are so much of an issue nowadays, but all the associated emissions devices.

When those fail, you're still off the road and looking at very significant repair bills and long downtime. However, the reasoning is different than the days of old, and not truly reflected in antiquated life calculations.

 

[BowNisPar]

Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: hpb
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: BowNisPar
Not worth the cost, complication, and likely unreliability vs. A gasoline version. The dream of a diesel engine being the small, reliable, torquey, long lasting engine is not going to come true in America.


Why ?

Do the laws of physics operate differently over there ?


I'm guessing it's a fear of the unknown.


So far DPF's and high pressure pumps have not been cheap. Not every single one has failed, and I bet a majority make it to 150k--but there are too many stories of them not. The guts of the engine might go for a million miles, but all the pieces around them seem to fail.

Since typical American method of buying cars is to finance for five years, and to buy about as much as they can afford, a good deal of people are not sitting on several grand to do these repairs when they happen.

Now if we had fuel prices like the rest of the world, things would be much different.


Diesel being a lot more $ up front, plus 50 cents a gallon more expensive (in Houston), plus expensive repairs...

trust me, id love my accent to have a torque-y little diesel getting great mileage, but the EPA and CARB-Nazis will never let that happen.

 

[edyvw]

Diesel in CO is 10cents cheaper then regular. In CA difference is even bigger.

 

[jeepman3071]

In the US diesel has jumped the shark. Like others have said, higher initial purchase price, higher fuel prices, and insane maintenance costs. Emissions standards have made newer diesel vehicles very costly to own, and therefore whatever benefits they may have had before are outweighed by their complexity.

Take a look at the increase in prices of older and simpler diesel pickup trucks. A Ford truck with the 7.3 diesel that runs and isn't totally rusted out goes for $10k here all day, even if it has already had the snot run out of it.

There was a time when diesel could've been a great means of transportation, and environmentally friendly too. Simpler diesels could be run on waste vegetable oil for most of the year, which produces no emissions and costs very little to operate. Unfortunately the government and big businesses (ethanol) didn't like that idea. One of my college professors has an older Volkswagen TDi that he runs on vegetable oil for most of the year except the winter months. He gets great mpg and spends very little on fuel costs. Vegetable oil lubricates the engine better than regular low sulfur diesel, and his oil still looked extremely clean after many miles. Anyone who owns a diesel knows the oil usually turns black after running it for more than 20 minutes due to the soot contamination.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: SumpChump
Diesel needs iron ... Bottom line. Something's just need to be. We all have to poo and despite the disease it can spread we still haven't figured out how to do away with it.

There is no issue with aluminum head, for like 25 years in diesel engines.
Block is iron.


Mercedes went to an aluminum head on the Om603 in 1986 so almost 30 years.


Like all other 2015 diesels its going to be expensive to buy, fix, and maintain, and in CT diesel is still .80-$1 more than RUG.

 

[Shannow]

Note that neither of the Aussies in the thread used or brought in the term "dumb Americans".

Was over there this time last year, and it was completely different being in a motel shuttle bus and hearing a big V-8 or a V10 screaming away.

Clearly, there's something different.

Here's recently released cost of ownership figures for Oz.

https://www.racv.com.au/wps/wcm/connect/...ad-9d0706b8861d

"2WD Utes" and "4WD Utes" is the topical sub group, and the diesels are usually king in that class, with initial cost, fuel cost, depreciation and maintenance factored in.

A propane commodore is in top 10 for it's class, so yes, Oz has different dynamics.

I can run a diesel 4x4 ute for the same 5 year cost of ownership as a Nissan Leaf, which is comforting...and (the number's not on that sheet), a 4.8 litre Nissan Patrol petrol is nearly double (but it's $90k).

 

[hpb]

Originally Posted By: BowNisPar
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: hpb

Not worth the cost, complication, and likely unreliability vs. A gasoline version. The dream of a diesel engine being the small, reliable, torquey, long lasting engine is not going to come true in America.


So far DPF's and high pressure pumps have not been cheap. Not every single one has failed, and I bet a majority make it to 150k--but there are too many stories of them not. The guts of the engine might go for a million miles, but all the pieces around them seem to fail.

Since typical American method of buying cars is to finance for five years, and to buy about as much as they can afford, a good deal of people are not sitting on several grand to do these repairs when they happen.

Now if we had fuel prices like the rest of the world, things would be much different.


Diesel being a lot more $ up front, plus 50 cents a gallon more expensive (in Houston), plus expensive repairs...

trust me, id love my accent to have a torque-y little diesel getting great mileage, but the EPA and CARB-Nazis will never let that happen.


I take all your points as to why diesels don't make sense in the US - never accused anyone of being dumb though, I'm sorry you inferred that. One thing that keeps being mentioned is the unreliability of diesels, that certainly isn't a trend we see here, and I'd reckon about a third of the vehicles on Aussie roads are diesel, with the ratio in Europe even higher. I wonder what's different in the US that's given rise to the reputation of not being reliable?

 

[clinebarger]

I have a customer with over 10 Duramax GMC's ranging from '07 to '14, All with DPF & 2 with SCR/UREA.

The 2 2007's have over 300K & over 15,000 hours on them, They get worked HARD & idle a lot. A few times I have drained at least 2 quarts of fuel from the crankcase at 10K OCI's in the winter.

Neither has had the DPF replaced, A manual/forced re-gen here & there...Sure, But no high dollar repairs.

Just my 2-cents.

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: clinebarger
I have a customer with over 10 Duramax GMC's ranging from '07 to '14, All with DPF & 2 with SCR/UREA.

The 2 2007's have over 300K & over 15,000 hours on them, They get worked HARD & idle a lot. A few times I have drained at least 2 quarts of fuel from the crankcase at 10K OCI's in the winter.

Neither has had the DPF replaced, A manual/forced re-gen here & there...Sure, But no high dollar repairs.

Just my 2-cents.



With the right care/modifications they can be reliable machines, but they are very particular about maintenance. Which is not something that sits well with a consumer market that just wants to gas and go. Pretty soon we will be seeing cars with "lifetime crankcase oil" just like lawn mowers.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
In the US diesel has jumped the shark. Like others have said, higher initial purchase price, higher fuel prices, and insane maintenance costs. Emissions standards have made newer diesel vehicles very costly to own, and therefore whatever benefits they may have had before are outweighed by their complexity.

One would have said the exact same things about gasoline in the 1970s in North America. That's why we experimented with a bunch of diesel vehicles. Ironically, since the vast majority of them were garbage, they ended up helping the gassers in the end.

Give things time, that's all.

 

[HangFire]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: BowNisPar
Not worth the cost, complication, and likely unreliability vs. A gasoline version. The dream of a diesel engine being the small, reliable, torquey, long lasting engine is not going to come true in America.


Why ?

Do the laws of physics operate differently over there ?

No, just some economic realities.

1. High cost of our diesel fuel.
2. Some so-so and some really bad pickup truck implementations.
3. DEF