Factory Fill Magic Elixir?

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Garak
I bet it's just residual assembly lube showing up in UOAs. I'd almost wager money on that one.

Honda uses a product similar to Molykote GN on all engine bearings. It washes out into the oil and gives these high moly reading in a UOA.
It is 100% not a break in oil, some other manufacturers use a thick oil based product fortified with zinc and or other compounds at assy.
Once the engine is fired and run this residual has little or no benefit and causes no harm.

 

[Garak]

There we go, I'm pretty sure I recall you mentioning that before, too. If they wanted a "real" break in lube, they wouldn't be using what they are.

 

[Bear]

Either way , it seems like a good idea not to change out the ff too early and to just follow the manufacturers recommended interval.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Bear
Either way , it seems like a good idea not to change out the ff too early and to just follow the manufacturers recommended interval.

The question of whether to change FF early or not is probably one of the most polarizing topics on BITOG.

 

[4wheeldog]

I may be over sensitive, but I feel "Break in" is a misnomer. We would all be better off if we considered the initial process of an engine being tempered as the "Run in" process. The limeys don't get a lot of credit for proper usage from me......But this is one term that they got right, and we got wrong.

That said, other than extra hard rings on extremely hard cylinder walls, I have a hard time believing much useful running in occurs past the first few minutes of operation. Heat cycles, and concern for not overheating initial hot spots......Would be more reasonable concerns than actual wear.

So....Run cycles of increasing length, with cool downs in between, for the first couple of hundred miles could be helpful.

As far as the rings go, some full throttle operation in the fat part of the torque range, with gentle operation in between to avoid spot overheating, is the most positive thing one can do, to avoid future ring seating issues. If done properly, everything should be fully bedded in by 1k miles. The exception is a few German products, with rings so hard that may never fully seat.

All the above can be accomplished with any oil that meets the manufacturer's specs. No particular "Break in oil" is required. JMHO. YMMV.

 

[Hounds]

Alas, the Honda Motor Company has apparently given up on trying to persuade new owners not to drain the factory fill before the Mileage Minder indicates the first oil change is due.

As many Honda owners can tell you, for at least three decades if not longer, Honda owner's manuals instructed new owners not to change the FF early. For 2015, however, there's nothing whatsoever in the owner's manuals regarding the FF. There are 240 pages how to use the audio systems, Homelink and Bluetooth in the Accord manual, but nothing noteworthy in the other 352 pages (!) about engine oil, other than the usual advisory about checking for the stuff and the perils of ignoring the Mileage Minder maintenance codes.

For the truly obsessive/compulsive, there's still a glimmer of hope, however. The "special oil" advisory still appears on Honda's "official" owner's website, but it's probably only a matter of time before that's gone too. Honda cognoscenti will probably want to print a copy for their keepsake library..

 

[Trav]

Honda Germany still recommends 1K Km (600 miles).
Here is the issue. For a long time Honda and other Japanese manufacturers has had a green publicity campaign in the US to convince buyers that their companies are "greener".
Combine that with relatively short OCI compared to Europe they feel it is not too detrimental to leave it in there for a full OCI. Bump that OCI up to 20-30,000 Km and thats a lot of junk rolling around for a long time. They want it out ASAP.

Its a fact that no matter how clean the assembly facility is the engine is naturally going to shed metal from wearing in. Personally i want it out, on a brand new engine i might do a couple of very short OCI.
With todays engines the rings are broken in within the first 20 min, most of the junk comes from ferrous metals which would be the cams/valve train, chains if used and sprockets as well as any machining debris.
The engine gets blown off with air before assembly but its a production line engine, it doesn't get 100% the ultra fine machining dust out of every nook and cranny.

At worst this minuscule amount of debris will if anything cause minor scratches and embed in the bearings, its not particularly harmful. If your OCD you would prefer it not to be in there.

 

[ExMachina]

Trav ^^^^ very well put! And, oil filters are only good to get out stuff 20 microns or less. So there is ultra-fine metal grit in a new engine which does some damage. Not much damage though! I'd rather have it out around 1,000 miles or so, the LESS the BETTER.

As for moly, the moly particles get inside the machining-mark peaks and do slow the rate of shedding metal, from studies I've seen on this. Cylinder walls, like there.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Honda Germany still recommends 1K Km (600 miles).
Here is the issue. For a long time Honda and other Japanese manufacturers has had a green publicity campaign in the US to convince buyers that their companies are "greener".
Combine that with relatively short OCI compared to Europe they feel it is not too detrimental to leave it in there for a full OCI. Bump that OCI up to 20-30,000 Km and thats a lot of junk rolling around for a long time. They want it out ASAP.

Its a fact that no matter how clean the assembly facility is the engine is naturally going to shed metal from wearing in. Personally i want it out, on a brand new engine i might do a couple of very short OCI.
With todays engines the rings are broken in within the first 20 min, most of the junk comes from ferrous metals which would be the cams/valve train, chains if used and sprockets as well as any machining debris.
The engine gets blown off with air before assembly but its a production line engine, it doesn't get 100% the ultra fine machining dust out of every nook and cranny.

At worst this minuscule amount of debris will if anything cause minor scratches and embed in the bearings, its not particularly harmful. If your OCD you would prefer it not to be in there.


That's very interesting. Call me wasteful, I don't want that junk in my engine either, harmless or not I want it out. When you factor in what a new vehicle costs these days, for less than the cost of a tank of gas I can have that junk out. I'll waste the time and the money to feel good, if that's all it is I'm accomplishing by dumping the FF early. I recycle the oil so it's not wasted, it will be reused in one form or another.

Time to hide.

 

[ExMachina]

So on a new car, get that quality Magnetic Drain Plug in there ASAP

 

[HTSS_TR]

I had all my car's factory fill full OCI. The factory fill of E430 passed OLM by several hundreds miles.

LS400 with 370k miles has no engine problem related to oil or not. It consumes 1/2 quart 3-4k miles since new and still does now.

E430 with 170k mils has no engine problem, except a misfire couple months ago probably because of bad fuel. It didn't consume any measurable amount of oil since new, even with PP 5W20 and other thinner oil.

S2000 with 55k miles has no engine problem either. It sometimes consumes 1/4-1/2 quart in 5k(1 year) OCI, and it didn't use any oil for other OCI's .

There is no indication whatsoever that leave factory fill in engine for full OCI will cause damage to engine.

Almost all manufactures don't recommend change factory fill early.

 

[Trav]

It doesn't hurt, many motorcycles and manual transmissions come with one OE as do most automatic transmissions in the form of a pad magnet or drain plug.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I had all my car's factory fill full OCI. The factory fill of E430 passed OLM by several hundreds miles.

LS400 with 370k miles has no engine problem related to oil or not. It consumes 1/2 quart 3-4k miles since new and still does now.

E430 with 170k mils has no engine problem, except a misfire couple months ago probably because of bad fuel. It didn't consume any measurable amount of oil since new, even with PP 5W20 and other thinner oil.

S2000 with 55k miles has no engine problem either. It sometimes consumes 1/4-1/2 quart in 5k(1 year) OCI, and it didn't use any oil for other OCI's .

There is no indication whatsoever that leave factory fill in engine for full OCI will cause damage to engine.

Almost all manufactures don't recommend change factory fill early for cars sold in the USA.


That needed fixing because most cars sold in Germany including yours is 600 miles which is generally the first inspection.
After that the next OCI may be up to 18K miles.

 

[ExMachina]

Bottom line: Leaving in FF oil does very little damage. Not enough to notice standing outside staring at the engine.
For me, I'd rather be rid of sub-20-micron metal particles grinding away in there.

 

[camrydriver111]

The point about Germany is very interesting. Where can I find more info on this?

What about automatic transmissions?

 

[Trav]

I just looked at a 2012 Toyota Corolla and its 1K then 15K Km or 1 year after that.
Things change they may not need to in the future with newer manufacturing and better oils, i see one going 3K now.

You need to go to the dealer and look at a service manual for warranty for the exact info.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Bear
Either way , it seems like a good idea not to change out the ff too early and to just follow the manufacturers recommended interval.

The question of whether to change FF early or not is probably one of the most polarizing topics on BITOG.

YES, another no win battle for both sides.

 

[bigt61]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I had all my car's factory fill full OCI. The factory fill of E430 passed OLM by several hundreds miles.

LS400 with 370k miles has no engine problem related to oil or not. It consumes 1/2 quart 3-4k miles since new and still does now.

E430 with 170k mils has no engine problem, except a misfire couple months ago probably because of bad fuel. It didn't consume any measurable amount of oil since new, even with PP 5W20 and other thinner oil.

S2000 with 55k miles has no engine problem either. It sometimes consumes 1/4-1/2 quart in 5k(1 year) OCI, and it didn't use any oil for other OCI's .

There is no indication whatsoever that leave factory fill in engine for full OCI will cause damage to engine.

Almost all manufactures don't recommend change factory fill early.

That's good enough anecdotal evidence for me. Changing oil early is not in my DNA anyway. Keeping sumps topped off, that's another story.

 

[sir1900]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Almost all manufactures don't recommend change factory fill early.


And to add to the above comment, some manufacturers don't require the FF be changed out early either.

Looking at my Infiniti manual, it states:

"Your engine was filled with a high quality engine oil when it was built. You do not have to change the oil before the first recommended change interval."

You can change FF early if you want, but it's not going to hurt anything except your wallet for an oil change that isn't really required.

 

[camrydriver111]

Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Bear
Either way , it seems like a good idea not to change out the ff too early and to just follow the manufacturers recommended interval.

The question of whether to change FF early or not is probably one of the most polarizing topics on BITOG.

YES, another no win battle for both sides.


I think I might be sold on the break-in oil change.

Even for Hondas I think the UOAs show that the high moly sticks around even after the first oil change.