Engine Longevity - Dino vs Synthetic

[fdcg27]

Not really.
There are objective choices to be made based upon widely differing NOACK values, low temperature performance, TBN retention, as well as viscosity within any given grade and HTHS viscosity.
There are personal preferences involved that are not emotional.
Some users prefer to avoid sodium add packs, some prefer a shot of moly while others like titanium. Some like to see a lot of magnesium while others prefer an abundance of calcium.
Some like to see a nice slug of boron.
These may all be different roads to the same end, but there are measurable performance differences and most of the higher tier OTS oils exceed the API minimums by a comfortable margin, while most OTS API spec oils can't come close to the various Euro specs.
Plenty of room for objective choices in selecting an oil, although I agree with you in that any API SL/SM/SN oil will do a pretty good job of getting an engine past 200K as long as drain intervals are reasonable for the oil selected, the engine in question and the use to which that engine is put.
Let me put this another way.
Select an OTS API SN oil you'd run for 10K.
Would you do the same with any OTS API SN?
Not all oils are equal and so not all API SN oils are functionally equal.

 

[Ramblejam]

Originally Posted By: GaleHawkins
The fact is for example all SN labeled motor oil of the same weight are functionally equal.

The fact is one's choice in motor oil today is only an emotional decision.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: GaleHawkins
The fact is for example all SN labeled motor oil of the same weight are functionally equal.

I think we have to watch our wording here. You're quite right, but within limitations. In a vehicle calling only for an SN/GF-5 5w-30, PYB, QSGB, GTX, VWB, and so forth are functionally equivalent over OEM OCIs. That might hold true even if one throws synthetics in the mix. But, if one is extending OCIs, a synthetic should do better, and a long drain type synthetic should do better yet. Further, if a vehicle is calling for other specifications (i.e. dexos1), PP and PYB wouldn't be functionally equivalent over the OEM OCI.

If I'm doing a 3,000 mile OCI on my G (which calls for SM/GF-4 or better), it's not going to matter which SN/GF-5 5w-30 I choose. If I want to try a 10,000 mile OCI, more careful choices might be in order. If it called for an A5/B5 rated oil, then again, more careful choices would be in order.

 

[TrevorS]

Originally Posted By: GaleHawkins
The fact is for example all SN labeled motor oil of the same weight are functionally equal.


SN is an API standard.

Not only do API not set standards for the world outside of America, GM, Ford and Chrysler have their own oil standards. You may have heard of Dexos?

API SN is just about the lowest oil standard in the current landscape.

Many oils meet differing higher standards and are also labelled SN. They are certainly not all functionally similar!

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: GaleHawkins
The fact is for example all SN labeled motor oil of the same weight are functionally equal.

The fact is one's choice in motor oil today is only an emotional decision.

I agree with the emotional standpoint.. only with engines able to run with either or oils.

Check out the JK forum.. I read that some guy said "dinosaur skin doesn't protect your engine."

*and was dead set with M1 I believe. Which doesn't meet the Chrysler spec.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: TrevorS
Originally Posted By: GaleHawkins
The fact is for example all SN labeled motor oil of the same weight are functionally equal.


SN is an API standard.

Not only do API not set standards for the world outside of America, GM, Ford and Chrysler have their own oil standards. You may have heard of Dexos?

API SN is just about the lowest oil standard in the current landscape.

Many oils meet differing higher standards and are also labelled SN. They are certainly not all functionally similar!


I believe there should be more information posted and studied in detail. Comparing GF-5 with Ford and Chrysler's specs along with other manufactures PCMO specs such as Honda, Toyota, Kia and Mazda.


I believe you will find that you will find that GM Dexos license is the only one that is a little different.

Also I would like to see what the current Dexos-1 testing requirements are.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: GaleHawkins
The fact is for example all SN labeled motor oil of the same weight are functionally equal.


That's like saying all highschool graduates are functionally equal.

 

[virginoil]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3


Read my signature line. Then re-read it. Then read it yet again. Read it until you "get it" ...

Edited by dnewton3 (02/01/14 07:41 AM)
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...



That's not a signature line that is a signature short story. Its needs to be condensed whilst maintaining its content and intent.

 

[SLCraig]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Synthetic oil: Engine lasts until rest of car falls apart.
Dino oil: Engine lasts until rest of car falls apart.


Ain't that the truth.
It's rare someone puts a car out to pasture because the engine is gone. It definitely happens, but it's probably much more commonly from overheating etc.

 

[GaleHawkins]

Originally Posted By: SLCraig
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Synthetic oil: Engine lasts until rest of car falls apart.
Dino oil: Engine lasts until rest of car falls apart.


Ain't that the truth.
It's rare someone puts a car out to pasture because the engine is gone. It definitely happens, but it's probably much more commonly from overheating etc.


This fact is due to all motor oil of the same wight and API class are functionally equal.

Some have a need to think Amsoil, Mobil 1, etc, etc is functionally better than say WM Tech Synthetic, etc but they can not post any research to support their emotional decision to use what every high end brand. I served in war time so everyone could have the freedom to use the motor oil of their choice.

For those of us who can change everything with 15 gallons or less of motor oil it is hard to make a case to not run Synthetic from some source from a cost point of view. Synthetics has a lot of cool features but sadly those features do not make them functionally better than synthetics of the same weight and API classification when used per the specs in the owner manual.

For those who need 1500 gallons of motor oil to change all engines once then will often look at their options. Actually there is dino diesel oil selling for 50% of its synthetic counter parts and yet is functionally equal to synthetic per marketing materials.

Equal additive packages seem to functionally work about the same regardless of the base stock used to hold the additives in place.

The discussion between dino vs synthetic motor oil is over. Dino has been moving to be more synthetic like for years and now the gap is closed.

Fret not because new lines of additives are coming on line each year with nano technology being the catch word today. While the functional difference in real engines between dino and synthetic has disappeared advances will continue. The ceramic engines will cause us to rethink our thinking about motor oil once again perhaps.

 

[KrisZ]

Here is something that I noticed going on over the years.
We have countless threads about the "true synthetics" vs the "fake synthetics". Sparing you the details of those entertaining debates, all those threads essentially boil down to the actual performance of those oils and the specs they meet. Most people will agree that a "true synthetic" and a "fake synthetic" that meets the same specs will perform the same in an application that calls for an oil with those specific specs.

What baffles me is that plenty of people that participate in the fake vs real synth debates, seem to be incapable of applying the same logic in dino vs synth debate. If both dino and synth meet the manufacturer's specs and are used per manufacturers instructions, why would one make any difference in engine's life vs the other? Again, applying the logic of real vs fake synth. that many seem to agree on.

Another thing I should also point out is that if there really was any measurable difference in engine life that could be attributed to oil type, we could all be sure that oil marketing people would exploit that angle long time ago. And I'm not forgetting Mobil 1 study on taxi cabs, which did prove that M1's OCI can be safely extended to twice the dino OCI, but the teardown showed no difference in wear.

So, for the site that just loves to use marketing rubbish as "proof" for all sorts of discussions, why is this elephant in the room not discussed? Oh, I remember, because it does not play well with some people's beliefs and feelings

 

[fdcg27]

Another way of looking at this would be that if an engine doesn't exceed the capabilities of a conventional oil, then using a synthetic cannot extend its life.
If the oil used is adequate to the engine's needs, then using an oil that may in fact be better does not make this better oil superior in service.
If engine life could be greatly extended through the use of synthetic oil, those large fleet operators who run their vehicles until they can't be run any longer would be all over synthetics.
For the most part, they aren't.
I've seen engines opened up after 200K on the 55 gal drums of conventional or blend oil I buy for our garage and they're surpringly clean. Everything is on Kendall at the moment, since I got a good price for it.
Regular maintenance matters more than choice of oil and using an oil with performance well beyond the envelope an engine requires cannot help to extend the life of the engine.
Put simply, it would be like trying to fix something that isn't broken.

 

[TrevorS]

From all the reading I've done, there's no doubt that modern dino oils have great performance.

But they have that because modern engines demand more performance.

As Doug says, if a manufacturer requires synthetic then there's a reason.

At the same time, engines have been known to perform not as expected on recommended oils. Toyota in particular comes to mind. In these cases, synthetics would have been better for the owner.

I myself have seen 2 engines with low mileage that followed the manufacturers recommendations and for me have too many deposits given the fact that their oil changes were on time with lower mileage than the manufacturer specified. The cause I believe is cheap 15w40 dino. Synthetics and semi synthetics in both engines resulted in immediate improvements. Maybe higher quality dino would too.

But in conclusion I would say that in the absence of proof that certain engines do well on dino, especially modern engines that are getting more and more demanding on oil, using the highest quality oil is a good idea and in the US we are lucky that this means a few dollars extra when you DIY.

 

[Triton_330]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: GaleHawkins
The fact is for example all SN labeled motor oil of the same weight are functionally equal.


That's like saying all highschool graduates are functionally equal.


I believe the implication was that oils of the same specifications, take for example Dexos API SN spec'd oils, in a vehicle with those requirements, will all function equally well given proper OCI's - the most important part of the implication being that it is based upon said vehicle. Therefore, not necessarily saying that Brands A, B, C, and so on that are API SN spec'd are all equivalent, but that they will all be more than adequate in a vehicle with those requirements - that they are functionally equivalent when used in a vehicle with only those requirements. Given those implications, then what GaleHawkins said is correct; API SN oils are functionally equivalent. Key word being functionally.

And, as a pre-defense to those who still don't agree, think of it this way:

Person A has a car that requires API SN certified oil. Person A changes his oil according to the manufacturers specified OCI. The given OCI is, let's say 5k miles. Person A reaches 100k miles in his vehicle. He has always changed his oil at 5k, and has always used API SN oil, and every time he changed his oil, he switched brands - again, all being API SN certified.

Person B has a car that requires API SN and Dexos certified oil. He does everything exactly the same way as Person A, but with API SN Dexos oils - 5k OCI's as specified by manufacturer, switching brands each change, always using the required oils for his vehicle (API SN and Dexos certified), and reaches 100k miles.

Person C has the exact same car as Person A, and Person D has the exact same car as Person B - Both Persons C and D do not follow the OCI as sped'd by the manufacturer. Person C uses the required oil, but Person D does not; they both are using API SN certified oils. They use a 10k mile OCI, switching brands each change. They both reach 100k miles on their cars.

Excluding the exceptions (such as manufacturers defects causing problems - like the Toyota sludge fiasco), and therefore implying that the vehicles did not have said defects:

Each vehicle's engine is disassembled. What is found? For Persons A and B, because the required oils were used, were changed at the correct OCI, and did not have any pre-existing defects from the factory, their engines did not have sludge. For Person C, even though he used the required oils, since he went twice the OCI as specified by the manufacturer, their was a slight buildup of sludge and varnish in his engine. Also, the amount of wear on the internals of the engine were greater than the engines of Persons A and B. For Person D, since he did not use the required oils, nor did he use the specified OCI, his engine had more sludge, varnish, and wear than Person C's engine. Even though no pre-existing defects were in any of the vehicles, the engines of Persons C and D were not in good condition, yet the engines of Persons A and B were in good condition.

What happened and why? The oils that Persons A and C used functioned equivalently - yet because Person C went past the OCI he was specified to use, his oil sludged up. Had Person D used API SN Dexos oil, it would have functioned equivalently to Person B's oil, but since non-Dexos oil was used in Person D's vehicle, the oils they used did not function equivalently.

So, I conclude with this: API SN certified oils will function equivalently when they are used in vehicles that require them, even if used past the spec'd OCI. That doesn't mean that the engines in vehicles where the spec'd OCI was followed will look/perform the same as those where the spec'd OCI wasn't followed, but it does mean that none of the oils performed any less than adequate when changed at the correct OCI... Therefore, because each of the API SN cert'd oils all performed adequately in the engines where only that cert was required, it is permissible to say that all API SN cert'd oils function equivalently; they are functionally equivalent.

***Note: this assumes that the weight of the oils in each and every cross-comparison are the same. Obviously, API SN 5w-20 and API SN 5w-30 are not functionally equivalent.***

- Triton

P.S. Sorry for the long read. AND, do note that I am not, and do not wish to offend, or disrespect anyone. I respect everyone, and follow the rule that everyone should be able to voice their opinion. I value your opinions, and just because I sometimes disagree, I never have the intentions of disrespect.

 

[joel95ex]

my accord has well over 466k miles on bit and at least half of that was
super tech and other Dino's . keeping clean oil is the name of the game and that is where uoa's come into play. I never did a uoa but pretty much always
change the oil around 5k. I did use m1ep for 10k one time though. IMO the only advantage is extended drain intervals with syn. but on a turbo I would use syn
just because of the turbo's health

 

[GaleHawkins]

We have old equipment that see few hours/miles some time for several years without changing more than the filter so I like synthetic for those applications.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: joel95ex
keeping clean oil is the name of the game


This is the answer to engine longevity. Whether it's dino or syn doesn't matter.

 

[Maxima97]

Dino 7.5K OCI or Syn 10.0k, there is no difference. You try dino 10k OCI and syn 15K OCI, you will see the diffence. If you live in Minisota, try to crank a car under -20F with dino or syn, you will see the differnce.

 

[gfh77665]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Synthetic oil: Engine lasts until rest of car falls apart.
Dino oil: Engine lasts until rest of car falls apart.


Ask Honda 3.5 VCM owners.

 

[KD0AXS]

This is typical of the vans at my work. I can't speak for the first 100K or so, but I do know that the other 500K have been on nothing but el cheapo bulk dino 10W-30. Theoretically, the OCIs are 5000 miles, but realistically they usually get pushed to around 7000 miles before they make it in for an oil change.