Exactly my thought. The metal center tube could have been well bowed in.
Expensive, but good lesson. Good thread.
Ecore Experience
- Thread starter Red Bowtie
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Expensive, but good lesson. Good thread.
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I think that he was most assuredly in fully functional relief when this occured. If this was a simple stuck pump relief, he would have seen progressive pressure and the worst that would happen is that the can would blow off ..or he might break his distributor drive/intermediate shaft. The element, imho, could care less.
I will attempt to explain my "belief" (you must have faith
With the relief closed (not functioning) the filter falls into a heirarchy of pressure drop in relation to the engine ..in proportion to it. Hence, assuming it's relatively clean, it's resistance is VERY low (in comparison to the engine). When the pump is in relief ..the filter is "seeing" the highest pressure attainable in the system ..but the flow through it is reduced. This reduced flow creates a lower pressure drop across the engine (reduced flow - reduced pressure is developed).
So ..you've got the highest upstream pressure ..and a potentially much lower downstream pressure.
This could result in a very high pressure differential (and without a bypass valve, obviously did).
Just an update.
We've made the request to the claims management folks to have our oil filter returned to us. Should maybe expect to see it back within the week. Our plans are to cut it open if it isn't already and inspect it, take a couple pics and post them for everyone else to see.
It's the least we can do to help explain what happened and to complete the learning experience.
We've cut open our older PF1218's to inspect the filter media to keep track of what's going on inside the motor. We haven't noticed any of the center tubes being dented or collapsed as some folks have suggested. That's really insightful however, and it reflects the fact that you folks on BITOG analyze the information and are truly a knowledgeable crowd. You folks are awesome!
We've learned something about oil systems through this website and look forward to learning more.
Thank you everyone for your help.
We've made the request to the claims management folks to have our oil filter returned to us. Should maybe expect to see it back within the week. Our plans are to cut it open if it isn't already and inspect it, take a couple pics and post them for everyone else to see.
It's the least we can do to help explain what happened and to complete the learning experience.
We've cut open our older PF1218's to inspect the filter media to keep track of what's going on inside the motor. We haven't noticed any of the center tubes being dented or collapsed as some folks have suggested. That's really insightful however, and it reflects the fact that you folks on BITOG analyze the information and are truly a knowledgeable crowd. You folks are awesome!
We've learned something about oil systems through this website and look forward to learning more.
Thank you everyone for your help.
So you kept your old metal center tube PF1218 filters? Wow, that is great. If you did not see any problems with the old ones, I would definately try to complain to AC Delco. They should not be changing specs of an existing part number, unless it is to make it "better".
Let's give Champ a
A few things..
The 70 PSID that Champ mentioned is not what the E-core center tube/element collapses at. That's the OEM spec that is the minimum it should withstand. If my memeory is correct..
A usual question when a collapse happens is--why this time?
A by-pass valve will allow unfiltered oil past the element and downstream when the differential pressure reaches the minimum opening pressure of the valve.
However with a pressure spike of significant magnitude---no element--- will withstand the differential pressure. No by-pass valve can open quick enough to relieve the differential pressure.
The engine doesn't know if it has an AC brand, any other brand, or which filter manufacturer built it on it.
So regardless of brand, regardless of construction, the element will collapse under pressure spikes that exceedes the individual filters spec--and all are made by US manufacturers will meet or exceed the 70PSID requirement for this particular engine.
Generally it is the oil pump pressure regulating valve that has stuck and flowing way to much oil. When the engine is shut off and an inspection is made of the regulating valve, the debris has usually becomes dislodged (drops back into the pan) and that makes it hard to diagnose as the cause of the problem.
No one reading this thread or Red Bowtie himself knows how much pressure the oil pump put out. This isn't Formula One or the IRL. There isn't a black box on the engine ( unless corrected) that will have recorded the output and pressure.
This is why with the by-pass blocked Red Bowtie could merrily roll along and not have an apparent problem in any other filter previously used. This E-core would have lasted until he changed his oil--just like all the previous filters-- except it was subject to different conditions than the previous filters on the engine.
A question...how much pressure can the oil pump put out on Red Bowties hotrod engine? And how much with the regulating valve blocked?
The 70 PSID that Champ mentioned is not what the E-core center tube/element collapses at. That's the OEM spec that is the minimum it should withstand. If my memeory is correct..
A usual question when a collapse happens is--why this time?
A by-pass valve will allow unfiltered oil past the element and downstream when the differential pressure reaches the minimum opening pressure of the valve.
However with a pressure spike of significant magnitude---no element--- will withstand the differential pressure. No by-pass valve can open quick enough to relieve the differential pressure.
The engine doesn't know if it has an AC brand, any other brand, or which filter manufacturer built it on it.
So regardless of brand, regardless of construction, the element will collapse under pressure spikes that exceedes the individual filters spec--and all are made by US manufacturers will meet or exceed the 70PSID requirement for this particular engine.
Generally it is the oil pump pressure regulating valve that has stuck and flowing way to much oil. When the engine is shut off and an inspection is made of the regulating valve, the debris has usually becomes dislodged (drops back into the pan) and that makes it hard to diagnose as the cause of the problem.
No one reading this thread or Red Bowtie himself knows how much pressure the oil pump put out. This isn't Formula One or the IRL. There isn't a black box on the engine ( unless corrected) that will have recorded the output and pressure.
This is why with the by-pass blocked Red Bowtie could merrily roll along and not have an apparent problem in any other filter previously used. This E-core would have lasted until he changed his oil--just like all the previous filters-- except it was subject to different conditions than the previous filters on the engine.
A question...how much pressure can the oil pump put out on Red Bowties hotrod engine? And how much with the regulating valve blocked?
Correct TurboJim. Mr Filter guy is apparently clueless when it comes to the BBC lubrication system.
A stuck oil pressure relief valve would be my guess as the cause of this problem as well.quote:
Originally posted by Filter guy:
A few things..
The 70 PSID that Champ mentioned is not what the E-core center tube/element collapses at. That's the OEM spec that is the minimum it should withstand. If my memeory is correct..
A usual question when a collapse happens is--why this time?
A by-pass valve will allow unfiltered oil past the element and downstream when the differential pressure reaches the minimum opening pressure of the valve.
However with a pressure spike of significant magnitude---no element--- will withstand the differential pressure. No by-pass valve can open quick enough to relieve the differential pressure.
The engine doesn't know if it has an AC brand, any other brand, or which filter manufacturer built it on it.
So regardless of brand, regardless of construction, the element will collapse under pressure spikes that exceedes the individual filters spec--and all are made by US manufacturers will meet or exceed the 70PSID requirement for this particular engine.
Generally it is the oil pump pressure regulating valve that has stuck and flowing way to much oil. When the engine is shut off and an inspection is made of the regulating valve, the debris has usually becomes dislodged (drops back into the pan) and that makes it hard to diagnose as the cause of the problem.
No one reading this thread or Red Bowtie himself knows how much pressure the oil pump put out. This isn't Formula One or the IRL. There isn't a black box on the engine ( unless corrected) that will have recorded the output and pressure.
This is why with the by-pass blocked Red Bowtie could merrily roll along and not have an apparent problem in any other filter previously used. This E-core would have lasted until he changed his oil--just like all the previous filters-- except it was subject to different conditions than the previous filters on the engine.
A question...how much pressure can the oil pump put out on Red Bowties hotrod engine? And how much with the regulating valve blocked?
RedBowTie, whatever you do, install a new oil pump with what you are doing.
Also, this engine is crying for a racing type filter that is made stronger with a thicker can and so on.
The oil you have been using may have had some impact on this. Ford had a rash of blowing off oil filters roughly through the 91 to 94 models. It was determined to be from excessive wear to the oil pressure relief valve bore. They attributed the wear to using oil thicker than was recommended. Ford provided a part number for a replacement pump that had better wear resistance for those that insisted on using heavier oil.
I won't get into the "thinner is better" mantra, but you should study the issue and determine if thinner oil would be appropriate for you.
Perhaps the design of the ecore is such that the insides will come undone before the can ballons or splits.
Very rare for this to happen on BBCs/SBCs. You're more likely to twist or shear off the pump shaft or tear up the teeth on the camshaft or distributor drive gears if the oil filter didn't split open or pop off first.
While it's likely that all oem equivalent filters are susceptible to damage without a correctly functioning oil filter bypass valve it seems to me that here's more corroborating evidence that Ecores aren't as robust as the rugged Champ designs of lore given the manner in which this filter failed.
Who was that Oil Change Place guy who saw numerous failures? Maybe he was onto something.
Frankly, this is what I expected Champion to find (although I didn't think they would find the nylon cage collapsed).
The simple fact is the filter failed because you were not running with a functioning bypass valve. That you haven't had problems in the past is really irrelevant because given no bypass and the weight oil you were using it was just a matter of time before this happened. Had you kept using traditional design filters, one of those would no doubt have eventially failed in a similar manner.
Chalk this up to an expensive learning experience. And get that bypass valve working.
A question...how much pressure can the oil pump put out on Red Bowties hotrod engine? And how much with the regulating valve blocked?
427Z06..I suggest your reading comprehension needs some work as well..along with work on your people skills.
The regulating valve is in the oil pump.
The filter or block has a "by-pass" valve..it does not regulate flow and nowhere in my question did I ask about the "by-pass", I asked about the regulating valve.
Common terminology for people who work on these engines is either "pressure relief valve" or "bypass pressure valve." Virtually no one calls them "regulating valves". Thus you provide evidence to my original premise, you probably never been inside of one of these engines, if any engine.
And lets not forget the fact that you're a filter salesmen, and it seems like you always find fault with everything but the filters.
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Yes, Mel's a sales weasel.
So?
You make that sound like such a bad thing
So?
Gary, it may be because I've been traumatized by too many salesmen selling me silk purses made of sows' ears.
Let's not forget this fact:
And we know numerous other engines are running around with this modification, even if it's not such a great idea for the street without careful consideration. If it was common for the "pressure relief valve" to stick, I'm sure we'd hear about plenty of oil filter splitting, bursting, blowing out the gasket or at least leaking. In this case, I don't recall anything other than the engine croaking due to loss of oil flow, and we found the media in the oil filter outlet hole.
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Good point. Although I've always had reservations about the mod. This is the first time that I've seen this effect. I would have expected for some to find breached media at least
My end usually sees people who do this using the HP Fram lineup. So it may reduce the instance of falling into these niche situations that can cause this type of failure.
My end usually sees people who do this using the HP Fram lineup. So it may reduce the instance of falling into these niche situations that can cause this type of failure.
Yes, looks like those folks understand the implications of the mod. However, I'll go out on a limb and fathom a guess that many more people are using the filter the engine builder/seller recommends.
The pressure relief valve is located in the oil pump in a BBC.
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