And it's where it could be if it tore loose from the fiber endcap and was pushed through the first large opening in the cage.quote:
Originally posted by Filter guy:
Which is where it should be if there is a collapse...nylon cage or metal center tube..
Ecore Experience
- Thread starter Red Bowtie
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I guess I am not explaining this clearly enough.
It is the over pressurization that effects the media and center tube regardless of design.
You take your poison regardless of style.
If some want to get hung up on the media going through a nylon cage..be my guest.
Do you think it doesn't happen with a metal center tube?
What about certain manufacturers that use short center tubes?
There are two things to comprehend, what happens to the element with over pressurization and what happens after the center tube collapses and the filter element is compromized.
The media doesn't lose it's integrity because of what style the center tube is.
The entire element is tested for collapse. You don't test the media alone without a center tube. As it is the entire structure that is tested.
I guess it's hard to explain..but the media doesn't go through the center tube, if it does at all, until the collapse pressure is exceeded. That's about as clear as I can make it.
The key in this case is--no media was found downstream.
As the picture shows the "pleats" of the media..I would wager the media didn't go through the center tube but the core collapsed otherwise you wouldn't see pleats.
And the picture of the center tube area was taked after Red Bowtie (or someone else) tried to pull the media out of the element to see if it was loose. Apparently it wasn't. Without casting dispersions..the media as shown in the picture "might" have been enhanced due to the efforts to pull it out. ( which any consumer might try to do if this were to happen to them, it's not that big of a deal but it may skew some of the posting in here)
[ June 10, 2006, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Filter guy ]
It is the over pressurization that effects the media and center tube regardless of design.
You take your poison regardless of style.
If some want to get hung up on the media going through a nylon cage..be my guest.
Do you think it doesn't happen with a metal center tube?
What about certain manufacturers that use short center tubes?
There are two things to comprehend, what happens to the element with over pressurization and what happens after the center tube collapses and the filter element is compromized.
The media doesn't lose it's integrity because of what style the center tube is.
The entire element is tested for collapse. You don't test the media alone without a center tube. As it is the entire structure that is tested.
I guess it's hard to explain..but the media doesn't go through the center tube, if it does at all, until the collapse pressure is exceeded. That's about as clear as I can make it.
The key in this case is--no media was found downstream.
As the picture shows the "pleats" of the media..I would wager the media didn't go through the center tube but the core collapsed otherwise you wouldn't see pleats.
And the picture of the center tube area was taked after Red Bowtie (or someone else) tried to pull the media out of the element to see if it was loose. Apparently it wasn't. Without casting dispersions..the media as shown in the picture "might" have been enhanced due to the efforts to pull it out. ( which any consumer might try to do if this were to happen to them, it's not that big of a deal but it may skew some of the posting in here)
[ June 10, 2006, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Filter guy ]
But you're assuming that the center tube being crushed in the conventional filter would have been better. In my mind that would have cause the same situation of oil starvation that killed the engine here.
I don't think it's fair to judge the ecore design by this event, things are seeming increasingly stacked against it.
It's been stated a couple of times that Red Bowtie is using 20W-50 Valvoline oil but not which type. The link above suggests to break in the engine with non-synthetic racing oil. Valvoline makes three types of racing oils - only VR1 according to their website is suitable for street use. A pure racing oil is not going to have the proper additive package to keep the engine internals clean. Contaminant build up could have led to the oil pump relief valve sticking which caused the over pressurization we've seen here. Don't know that it did of course but it's a possibility.
If Red Bowtie was not going to make his in block by-pass functional then he needs to seek out oil filters which have a high burst pressure and center tube collapse resistance. This will not keep the media from tearing however when too much pressure is introduced into the filter.
The Chevy guys always seem to disable the block mounted bypass. I assumed it was because they were using filters with a high flow rate and not running hard until the oil was up to temp, filters with a bypass or a remote that almost always takes a Ford filter wich of course has a bypass.
I had no idea they were defeating *any* source of filter bypass...
Which is where it should be if there is a collapse...nylon cage or metal center tube..
I forget who it was, but someone famous first did this modification about 30 years ago, however, he understood it's full implications, and as you mentioned, used high flow rate filters and/or insured the oil was at the proper viscosity before stressing the system. Unfortunately, it has caught on as standard practice by people who DON'T understand it's full implications. I believe you won't find any GM crate motor intended for the street with this modification.
TurboJim, your not by chance 'BimmerJim' with the boosted E30, are you?
That was another question I had reading through the thread earlier. Does GM do this on their crate motors? I thought the engine we were talking about here was a GM crate motor. Then the "builder" was being discussed so I still didn't have an answer to that.
That GM does not do this even on their high performance crate motors says a lot to me...
Holy mackerel... When the e-core first hit, they had a baseplate on it with the extra holes, providing bypass. Lots of folks crabbed about that, Champ responded, and changed the design,and now there is crabbing about the current design. What GM app filter does have self-protection? The engine builder really needed to be very specific about the bypass being well, bypassed, and a high flow filter installed. This was a ticking time bomb, the e-core just initiated the final countdown.
As promised, the service report from Champ.
Complaint: Reportedly the filter collapsed during service. Major engine damage was reported.
Test Results:
1. The nylon core is broken and media has collapsed inward. Previous lab testing indicates a differential pressure in excess of 70 psi required to damage this type filter in this manner.
2. This engine should be equipped with a bypass valve that opens during periods of high differential pressure. This bypass valve has obviously failed to function properly.
Note: There was nothing found which indicated the filter was defective. The filter has been in service on an engine that malfunctioned.
OK. So now you have Champs response.
I'm going to request the filter be sent back so we can cut it apart and take a couple pics to post so everyone can take a look.
Now I have two questions.
First question.
On the Champ Ecore website they have a Frequently Asked Questions section. One of the questions is "Is the plastic center core as strong as the metal core that was used in the past?" Their answer is "Yes, the glass filled nylon core is twice as strong as the steel core it replaces." My question would be then, how were we able to have run this motor for 3 years with the steel cored PF1218 and not have seen this type of failure? Again, for the recored, we have not changed a thing in this motor, the oil pump, the oil we use and the way we drive and operate the car.
Second question.
Again, from the Champ Ecore FAQ section. "What is the max flow rate of your new filter design?" Their answer is "The nylon core on the new design contains more open area than the old the old perforated steel core. This results in less flow restriction across the element assembly." My question would be, given the excellent past 3 year service record we've had with the old steel cored PF1218, balanced against the information that Champ delivers in their FAQ section, why should we have not considered using the new design oil filter if it has a "twice as strong" core with "less flow restriction"?
Given the information provided by Champ on their website about their new oil filter design and your previous experience with a part number, what sort of decision would you make?
FYI...GM Performance has a video clip of a 572 in service. Just curious about what filter they're using?
http://www.gmgoodwrench.com/perfpartsjsp/home.jsp
Thanks to everyone for contributing their comments and opinions. This has been a great learning experience.
Complaint: Reportedly the filter collapsed during service. Major engine damage was reported.
Test Results:
1. The nylon core is broken and media has collapsed inward. Previous lab testing indicates a differential pressure in excess of 70 psi required to damage this type filter in this manner.
2. This engine should be equipped with a bypass valve that opens during periods of high differential pressure. This bypass valve has obviously failed to function properly.
Note: There was nothing found which indicated the filter was defective. The filter has been in service on an engine that malfunctioned.
OK. So now you have Champs response.
I'm going to request the filter be sent back so we can cut it apart and take a couple pics to post so everyone can take a look.
Now I have two questions.
First question.
On the Champ Ecore website they have a Frequently Asked Questions section. One of the questions is "Is the plastic center core as strong as the metal core that was used in the past?" Their answer is "Yes, the glass filled nylon core is twice as strong as the steel core it replaces." My question would be then, how were we able to have run this motor for 3 years with the steel cored PF1218 and not have seen this type of failure? Again, for the recored, we have not changed a thing in this motor, the oil pump, the oil we use and the way we drive and operate the car.
Second question.
Again, from the Champ Ecore FAQ section. "What is the max flow rate of your new filter design?" Their answer is "The nylon core on the new design contains more open area than the old the old perforated steel core. This results in less flow restriction across the element assembly." My question would be, given the excellent past 3 year service record we've had with the old steel cored PF1218, balanced against the information that Champ delivers in their FAQ section, why should we have not considered using the new design oil filter if it has a "twice as strong" core with "less flow restriction"?
Given the information provided by Champ on their website about their new oil filter design and your previous experience with a part number, what sort of decision would you make?
FYI...GM Performance has a video clip of a 572 in service. Just curious about what filter they're using?
http://www.gmgoodwrench.com/perfpartsjsp/home.jsp
Thanks to everyone for contributing their comments and opinions. This has been a great learning experience.
I would definitely get the filter back. Champ is saying that the filter was not defective. I would want to double check the broken nylon cage myself to see if there was any evidence of a void during injection molding that would have made the cage weak.
I have taken apart an e-core and found that the nylon cage is very strong, even compared to metal ones. However, and just speculating here, metal will tend to fail gracefully while some plastics will shatter when broken. So, it may be that you have had center tube "failures" before with your metal core filters... just that these "failures" only bent or semi-collapsed the core and maybe you never noticed. (If that is true, of course, the metal design still worked for you because you never before had a "spectacular" failure.)
I have taken apart an e-core and found that the nylon cage is very strong, even compared to metal ones. However, and just speculating here, metal will tend to fail gracefully while some plastics will shatter when broken. So, it may be that you have had center tube "failures" before with your metal core filters... just that these "failures" only bent or semi-collapsed the core and maybe you never noticed. (If that is true, of course, the metal design still worked for you because you never before had a "spectacular" failure.)
The first thing I would do is install the proper Oil Filter Adapter with the oil filter bypass valve functioning correctly. I haven't worked on BBCs for some time, and I understand that the Gen V and VI Oiling System are a bit different than the older BBCs, so some research may be needed on your part to get things set up correctly.
Here's an example of the part you need:
http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/317/products/291/BB-Chevy-Gen-V-VI-Oil-Filter-Adapater.htm
First Question: As Kanling has pointed out in this instance you had a spectacular failure. You could have been having similar problems all along running without a bypass. Unless you were to cut open your filter you might not be aware of the damage.
If you were to hit a metal center tube using a hammer with increasingly hard blows it would first resist your efforts to dent it but then would start to crush. Once crushed it would not bounce back into it's original form.
Hit a Ecore with a hammer and what happens? Up until the moment that the material shatters it always bounces back into its original shape.
Second Question: Very few oil filters are designed to operate without the benefit of some sort of bypass protection. Those that do probably aren't going to do a very good job of filtering. Either you need to put a bypass back in as many have suggested or use a high flow filter designed for racing. Having a bypass that's blocked off and using a street filter isn't going to work.
If you were to hit a metal center tube using a hammer with increasingly hard blows it would first resist your efforts to dent it but then would start to crush. Once crushed it would not bounce back into it's original form.
Hit a Ecore with a hammer and what happens? Up until the moment that the material shatters it always bounces back into its original shape.
Second Question: Very few oil filters are designed to operate without the benefit of some sort of bypass protection. Those that do probably aren't going to do a very good job of filtering. Either you need to put a bypass back in as many have suggested or use a high flow filter designed for racing. Having a bypass that's blocked off and using a street filter isn't going to work.
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This doesn't mean that you didn't have other filters fail. It just means that any failures didn't result in starvation. You hit the right combo to trigger the nasty event. I'm sure that you've sent quite a few owners of defeated bypass ports to the crapper in panic. They'll be worrying until they either get a racing filter on there ..or get the plug ..unplugged.
I really feel for you. This isn't cheap. It would have been preferred that you just found the media poking its head out and never saw a problem with the engine ..and reasoned out why it occurred ..but it didn't end up that way.
If it's any consolation, you've probably saved several Chebbie owners from the potential for the same fate ...and you may briefly relish the fact that you, all by yourself, cause an impact BITOG wide in revelation
You are handling this very well
Experiance: What you get when you don't get what you wanted.
1. I am shocked that the AC Delco Filter rep stated that RedBowtie should have known to check on the filter specs when new filter, with the SAME part number appeared to be made differently. Any respectable company would would not change the design requirements of any specific part number. If the design specs changed they would make NEW part number. Duh.
2. Plastic fails differently than steel. That is why you will never see plastic air piping. Or plastic piping for any gas piping. It fails catistrophically, instead of deforming.
3. Since this is a GM "Crate" engine, I thought that GM assembled the engine. No? Whoever it was, I would definately blame the builder for this failure.
4. Champ basically stated in their response, that the filter can handle 70psi differential pressure.(which is pretty high, BTW). I would like to know what differential pressure the pre-ecore filter could handle.
5. I would want to personally inspect that E-core cage for any thin spots (mfg defects).
2. Plastic fails differently than steel. That is why you will never see plastic air piping. Or plastic piping for any gas piping. It fails catistrophically, instead of deforming.
3. Since this is a GM "Crate" engine, I thought that GM assembled the engine. No? Whoever it was, I would definately blame the builder for this failure.
4. Champ basically stated in their response, that the filter can handle 70psi differential pressure.(which is pretty high, BTW). I would like to know what differential pressure the pre-ecore filter could handle.
5. I would want to personally inspect that E-core cage for any thin spots (mfg defects).
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