Drove the Fiesta ST & Focus ST

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: Cujet

Struts have limitations in suspension geometry. But, a typical double wishbone setup, with upper and lower "A" arms can achieve the steering geometry desired.




Amazing how Honda forgot, with the latest Accord. They saved a few bucks per car and removed the DWB suspension after nearly two decades. Now even untrained drivers can tell there is lower ride quality even if the handling is decent.

I can definitely tell that the DWB Accords from some years ago give great handling and are extremely nimble and at the same time have a VERY good, comfortable ride.

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: rjundi
10-20 years back in my life I would be drooling over one of these. Now not any interest. Ford looks to have done a great job with another good entry.

I have owned the "hot hatches" over the years including 82 GTI, 88 323 GTX(Mazda turbo AWD), and finally a 2003 WRX wagon. Age 39 turned into old man and sold the WRX and never looked back. I like fun cars, manual transmissions, decent great handling. However I want a really good/quiet ride too which none of these hatches will ever offer.


I'm almost there, myself.

 

[MCompact]

I'm 56 and I still prefer small and nimble cars. I looked at the Focus ST but I thought that it would be essentially a lateral move from my 2007 MS3. I also didn't like the option bundling; I want Xenons and heated Recaros but I don't want navigation or the MFT interface. Plus, all the local dealers ordered them with a hole in the roof- I'd rather have an LSD for the same money($900). And, when all is said and done, I still preferred the driving experience of my MS3, which is best described as attempting to walk an ADD Pit Bull on Crystal Meth...

I'm definitely going to check out the Fiesta ST, but I'll probably pick the Abarth 500 if I go the hot hatch route, as I already have a four door car and I'm partial to the Fiat's rat racer personality.

 

[daves87rs]

Nice!

 

[zzyzzx]

I'm keeping my 1995 Escort until someone actually makes a fuel efficient 2 door hatchback again.

 

[Norm Olt]

The mags are all raving about the next gen GTI...

Including the 150K mile timing belt!

Cheers!

p.s. What I would like to see is another HOT small to midsize wagon (5-door hatch?) to compete with Subaru: the new Mazda 6 ought to be in wagon format, IMHO.

I know, I know... Audi makes one but it is too expen$ive

 

[surfstar]

Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
I'm keeping my 1995 Escort until someone actually makes a fuel efficient 2 door hatchback again.


Veloster? An extra 1/2 door, but there's not many other options.


Ford has done well on these. I'm waiting to see how the next Mazdaspeed3 does, though.

 

[Hokiefyd]

I have absolutely zero interest in either of these cars.

Yet I am somehow extremely interested in driving them around an autocross course for an hour!

Signed up for 9:00AM in Charlotte on 08/24. Thanks for the heads-up!

 

[dparm]

I wasn't really interested in either of them, but I do like to stay current on everyone's offerings. Plus it's a chance to beat up on someone else's car...for free!

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
Cool stuff. The Focus has that rotating steering knuckle designed into the strut assembly, so no doubt it was handling better than the lighter Fiesta. Focus "Revoknuckle" results in a tighter SAI and scrub radius.
Check this out:

Notice the upper pivot point of the wheel is determined by that "upper" ball joint- or upper knuckle mount (not sure what it's called) and not the strut bearing. Pretty cool improvement for FWD dynamics

Article
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/ford-revoknuckle-and-gm-hiper-strut-explained-tech-dept


Yep. Great tech and their inside front brake trick really gets the car to turn in unlike most FWD cars. A little aftermarket tuning and that's easily a 300 hp car.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Cool stuff. The Focus has that rotating steering knuckle designed into the strut assembly, so no doubt it was handling better than the lighter Fiesta. Focus "Revoknuckle" results in a tighter SAI and scrub radius.
Check this out:

Notice the upper pivot point of the wheel is determined by that "upper" ball joint- or upper knuckle mount (not sure what it's called) and not the strut bearing. Pretty cool improvement for FWD dynamics

Article
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/ford-revoknuckle-and-gm-hiper-strut-explained-tech-dept


Yep. Great tech and their inside front brake trick really gets the car to turn in unlike most FWD cars. A little aftermarket tuning and that's easily a 300 hp car.

Is less scrub radius even better? Tilt the regular strut in abit and it can be zero or negative if needed.
I was doing some autocross and a guy had a fox body with very adjustable upper strut mounts. I recall he was tilting the strut back to add negative camber when turning sharply but he wasn't worried about torque steer either! Torque from the brakes must act similarly though?

 

[bdcardinal]

Top Gear UK just reviewed the Fiesta ST on their Series 20 opened on Sunday. It went against a Peugeot and Renault in the same category. Even though it had the least horsepower and ran 2nd on the lap time, they said it won the test. For both Hammond and Clarkson to give the car such praise, it has to be good.

 

[rjundi]

My only experience ever with a Fiesta is the Fiesta R2 in a short ride along in the woods. Amazing car.....

 

[SLCraig]

Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
Top Gear UK just reviewed the Fiesta ST on their Series 20 opened on Sunday. It went against a Peugeot and Renault in the same category. Even though it had the least horsepower and ran 2nd on the lap time, they said it won the test. For both Hammond and Clarkson to give the car such praise, it has to be good.


I saw that, too.
I was interested in the Fiesta ST as soon as I heard about it.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Is less scrub radius even better? Tilt the regular strut in a bit and it can be zero or negative if needed.
I was doing some autocross and a guy had a fox body with very adjustable upper strut mounts. I recall he was tilting the strut back to add negative camber when turning sharply but he wasn't worried about torque steer either! Torque from the brakes must act similarly though?


Ford mentioned some interesting tweaks to the ABS to allow the inside tire to be braked as you turn to get the car to turn in. They also have a unique steering program (EPS) to fight torque steer, and the brakes also manage wheelspin.

My fav rag raved about the handling, said the car rotates beautifully without getting crazy. Per the OP's comments it must actually be working at the autocross.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: rjundi
My only experience ever with a Fiesta is the Fiesta R2 in a short ride along in the woods. Amazing car.....


Was this a fully prepped rally car, driven by 'Timo' O'Neil??

 

[rationull]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

Ford mentioned some interesting tweaks to the ABS to allow the inside tire to be braked as you turn to get the car to turn in. They also have a unique steering program (EPS) to fight torque steer, and the brakes also manage wheelspin.

My fav rag raved about the handling, said the car rotates beautifully without getting crazy. Per the OP's comments it must actually be working at the autocross.


I don't like the idea of these systems. I'm sure it helps handling but seems like it contributes to extra brake wear, and uneven brake wear between the two sides of the vehicle. I'd rather just have a better balanced RWD or AWD car and use geometry and power to help point the car rather than brakes.

Not knocking either ST though. The world needs more hot hatches!

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: rationull
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

Ford mentioned some interesting tweaks to the ABS to allow the inside tire to be braked as you turn to get the car to turn in. They also have a unique steering program (EPS) to fight torque steer, and the brakes also manage wheelspin.

My fav rag raved about the handling, said the car rotates beautifully without getting crazy. Per the OP's comments it must actually be working at the autocross.


I don't like the idea of these systems. I'm sure it helps handling but seems like it contributes to extra brake wear, and uneven brake wear between the two sides of the vehicle. I'd rather just have a better balanced RWD or AWD car and use geometry and power to help point the car rather than brakes.

Not knocking either ST though. The world needs more hot hatches!


Agreed. But I don't always call them wrong wheel drive for a reason.

When absolutely everything is on the front wheels it is much more difficult to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear!

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Is less scrub radius even better? Tilt the regular strut in a bit and it can be zero or negative if needed.
I was doing some autocross and a guy had a fox body with very adjustable upper strut mounts. I recall he was tilting the strut back to add negative camber when turning sharply but he wasn't worried about torque steer either! Torque from the brakes must act similarly though?


Ford mentioned some interesting tweaks to the ABS to allow the inside tire to be braked as you turn to get the car to turn in. They also have a unique steering program (EPS) to fight torque steer, and the brakes also manage wheelspin.

My fav rag raved about the handling, said the car rotates beautifully without getting crazy. Per the OP's comments it must actually be working at the autocross.

I think the ST here just has the normal mac strut suspension and the RS in europe has the new fancy "revo knuckle" set up.
Involving the brakes to adjust things like turn in, is kind of neat, and is probably better than having an aggresive/loose set up and then being helped out by the electronics, for a production car atleast anyways.
I found my crude suspension tuning on my Neon, made it very responsive and quite neutral, but it was a bit nervous over 60mph if you had to brake hard into a tightening corner. It was definetely an autocross speed setup, but with some electronic safety nets maybe you could run an agile autocross setup and still have the car safe enough for higher speeds?

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I have absolutely zero interest in either of these cars.

Yet I am somehow extremely interested in driving them around an autocross course for an hour!

Signed up for 9:00AM in Charlotte on 08/24. Thanks for the heads-up!


I wanted to follow this post up with a confession: I absolutely LOVED the Focus ST and Fiesta ST. I went into the event just knowing that I'd have zero interest in them, but came out of it blown away at the performance from those two performance hatches. I summed up my day here:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3104433#Post3104433