Castrol GTX 15w50 Zddp content?

[alcyon]

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy



You do realise that some of us are immune to this self-serving, corporate toadying that you spout? Give it up guy. It's tedious in the extreme...

yes I hate corporate toadying . The oft repeated phrase "your engine will outlive the body its in with any API SN or SM oil" is getting a little old to me. There are those of us who want to beat the system and avoid buying new cars altogether, like me, so I want my car engine to last 1 million, perhaps 2 million kms. No one here so far wants to address this issue to those of us who wants our automobiles to work as long as we live. While in western countries cars are so cheap so that makes sense, in Malaysia, they are so bloody expensive, you need to take a 9 year loan everytime you buy a new car.

 

[Joe90_guy]

BD,

I'm not generally rude. If asked, I suspect a lot of people on this site might say my posts are both helpful and informative.

However there are people on this site who I judge are in the industry and are seeking to perpetuate the old myths, maintain the cartel-like lock on this industry, defend the indefensible and generally keep Joe Public in the dark about things he has a legitimate right to know about.

The recent threads about 'with crude oil prices at record lows, why hasn't the price of engine oil fallen?' revealed who some of these self-serving toadies were. Weasel was by far the worst (by the way, do you and he work together? Did he run blubbing to you saying The Bad Man had said Bad Things to him and could you make Him go away???). And if I'm really honest, you weren't too far behind him; wriggling and squirming, always dodging the direct question, suggesting that you know more (something I seriously doubt)...oh and the bit about 'all my colleagues are Mother Teresa'...well that was priceless!

 

[FCD]

I'm currently running HX3 In the red bottle , API SL , i did pull the rocker covers off the other day and the oil was dark in colour but i didn't notice any varnish, don't worry though it's getting changed for VR1 in a couple of months

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
It's funny that at the same store , HX3 is 35 Euro / 5L , VR1 is 33 despite the fact that VR1 is a far superior oil,


Originally Posted By: SR5

The Valvoline VR-1 20W-50 has a TBN of 12 and about 1300 ppm Zinc.


Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
VR1 by the way is a Group II oil


Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
I Was surprised to find out that the current oil i'm running , Shell HX3 has a TBN of just 6.2, even more of a reason to switch to VR1 i guess


FCD, not saying there are not other good oils out there for you, but it's pretty obvious that you should pay 2 euro less for the VR-1 instead of using the HX3 you are currently on.

The VR-1 20W-50 is API SL and ACEA A3/B4

There is also Castrol Power 1 Motorcycle oil, looks like it's available as 20W-50 or 15W-50 mineral, both are API SJ with a TBN of 9.8. Like I said, I think bike oils have a lot of zinc and are shear stable, but at 27 Euro for 4L (6.75 E/L) I think the VR-1 is still better value (6.6 E/L).

If you want to spend less, there is always the Group 1 mineral Comma X-Flow SP 20W50. It's API SL and ACEA A3/B3, with TBN = 8.7, Zinc = 1100ppm.

All you can go the other way. Semi-synthetic Shell HX7 20W-50, API SN, and it looks like TBN of about 9.5 and Zinc at about 1000ppm.

Plus the Castrol GTX 15W-50 mineral, API SL ACEA A3/B3, TBN >= 8.0, Zn ~ 950ppm

I think that is where we are at the end of 7 pages (I hope I got it all correct).

All would work. But if you have the money, I vote for the VR-1.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy

a semi-synthetic Group I/Group III 10W40


Originally Posted By: SR5

So are semi-synthetics Group 1 & Group 3 ?
I always assumed they would be Group 2 & Group 3


You can see how with my lack of knowledge, I just filled in the blanks and got it wrong.

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro

Can be either


Well half wrong

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy

However if you see a mineral oil that's API SM or SN, then it's very likely to be full Group II because it's very difficult (but not impossible) to get a Group I oil through the Sequence IIIG test. VR1 is Group II on this basis.


Euro 10W40 semi-synthetics are traditionally a mix of Group I and Group III. These oils are probably evolving into Group II/ Group III blends as Group II's back fill shuttered Group I refining capacity. While Group II's are more oxidatively stable than Group I's, viscometrically they are more or less equivalent so you can't replace a Group I/Group III blend with all Group II; you will generally need roughly the same amount of Group III in the mix.


Originally Posted By: bobbydavro

You should know a lot about GII/III and I/III in a certain 10W-40 A3/B4 package that disagrees with what you posted.


OK, I see a lot of mineral 15W-40 oils that are API SN & A3/B3.
I also see a lot of semi-synthetic 10W-40 oils that are SN & A3/B4.

How would I tell a GI/GIII semi-syn from a GII/GIII semi-syn given that they are both 10W-40 SN & A3/B4 ?

Would there be any difference in performance ? (e.g. which would be more suitable for a longer OCI)

What about if they made a pure GII mineral 15W-40 that was also SN & A3/B4, how would that compare to a Gi/GIII semi-syn with the same specs. In other words is a pure GII better than a GI/GIII if made to the same specs?

You know, I find this all a little shocking.

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted By: alcyon
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
If you compare a mineral Group I 20W50 with a semi-synthetic Group I/Group III 10W40 and a full synthetic Group III/Group IV, then yes, the 20W50 probably does have greater propensity to form varnish and drop out sludge in any climatic conditions.
However in your part of the world, most cheap oils have been moved away from Group I to Group II base oils simply because Group IIs are both cheaper and more widely, commercially available. Group II's don't possess the high VI of Group III and Group IV base oils but they are far more oxidatively stable. This means they have a far lower tendency to form deposits in real life conditions.

I still think HX-3 in Malaysia is group 1. this is based on the varnished choked engine of my friends car, who uses the cheapest oil he can buy, he says its the red bottle shell, so its HX-3. He is always amazed that my car can start with the air cond already switched on, and his cant. His piston rings are probably sticking.

Quote:
Hi Alcyon,
In Australia, Shell sell two types of mineral oil, HX3 and HX5, but in limited varieties.
We have Shell Helix HX3 20W-50, API SL. Which I assume is Grp 1.
We also have Shell Helix HX5 15W-40, API SN & ACEA A3/B3. Which I assume is Grp 2.
Looking at the global Shell web site, they also have stuff like
HX2 20W-50 API SG (White Bottle)
HX3 15W-40 API SL (Red Bottle)
HX5 20W-50 API SN (Yellow bottle)

Alcyon,
Malaysia had Helix3 20W50 SG/CF(4?) till mid-late 2000's, which I'd read as not recommended for carb'ed engine with pcv.
The current version of 20W50 SL/CF(not sure is Gr 1 or 2) was on store shelf beginning early 2010's or late 2000's.
Your friend's carb'ed Mitsu engine is late 80/early 90 model, and I guess he'd used entirely SG version, whence SL version had yet to appear.

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
BD,

I'm not generally rude. If asked, I suspect a lot of people on this site might say my posts are both helpful and informative.

However there are people on this site who I judge are in the industry and are seeking to perpetuate the old myths, maintain the cartel-like lock on this industry, defend the indefensible and generally keep Joe Public in the dark about things he has a legitimate right to know about.

The recent threads about 'with crude oil prices at record lows, why hasn't the price of engine oil fallen?' revealed who some of these self-serving toadies were. Weasel was by far the worst (by the way, do you and he work together? Did he run blubbing to you saying The Bad Man had said Bad Things to him and could you make Him go away???). And if I'm really honest, you weren't too far behind him; wriggling and squirming, always dodging the direct question, suggesting that you know more (something I seriously doubt)...oh and the bit about 'all my colleagues are Mother Teresa'...well that was priceless!


Did additive prices fall inline with crude ? Did PAO prices ?

No they didn't

 

[alcyon]

Originally Posted By: zeng
Originally Posted By: alcyon
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
If you compare a mineral Group I 20W50 with a semi-synthetic Group I/Group III 10W40 and a full synthetic Group III/Group IV, then yes, the 20W50 probably does have greater propensity to form varnish and drop out sludge in any climatic conditions.
However in your part of the world, most cheap oils have been moved away from Group I to Group II base oils simply because Group IIs are both cheaper and more widely, commercially available. Group II's don't possess the high VI of Group III and Group IV base oils but they are far more oxidatively stable. This means they have a far lower tendency to form deposits in real life conditions.

I still think HX-3 in Malaysia is group 1. this is based on the varnished choked engine of my friends car, who uses the cheapest oil he can buy, he says its the red bottle shell, so its HX-3. He is always amazed that my car can start with the air cond already switched on, and his cant. His piston rings are probably sticking.

Quote:
Hi Alcyon,
In Australia, Shell sell two types of mineral oil, HX3 and HX5, but in limited varieties.
We have Shell Helix HX3 20W-50, API SL. Which I assume is Grp 1.
We also have Shell Helix HX5 15W-40, API SN & ACEA A3/B3. Which I assume is Grp 2.
Looking at the global Shell web site, they also have stuff like
HX2 20W-50 API SG (White Bottle)
HX3 15W-40 API SL (Red Bottle)
HX5 20W-50 API SN (Yellow bottle)

Alcyon,
Malaysia had Helix3 20W50 SG/CF(4?) till mid-late 2000's, which I'd read as not recommended for carb'ed engine with pcv.
The current version of 20W50 SL/CF(not sure is Gr 1 or 2) was on store shelf beginning early 2010's or late 2000's.
Your friend's carb'ed Mitsu engine is late 80/early 90 model, and I guess he'd used entirely SG version, whence SL version had yet to appear.

hi Zeng, he has a 2006 Proton Saga LMST. so...

 

[zeng]

Oops, thousand apologies ...

Anyway I do use Helix3 20W50 in my 1994 carb'ed Mitsu(150000 km since last overhaul) and 2007 Toyota Avanza MPI (220000 km) for 5000/6000 km OCI.

Basing on 'blot test', I think it couldn't match dual rated Petronas CI4/SL 15W40 with 8000 km OCI , IMHO.

Edit: 2006 Proton Saga LMST is carb'ed engine right?

 

[alcyon]

Originally Posted By: zeng
Oops, thousand apologies ...

It ok, you can buy me a drink one day, since we live in the same country

 

[Joe90_guy]

SR5,

In answer to your latest crop of questions...

a) How do you tell a Group I/III 10W40 from a Group II/III 10W40 or from an all Group II 10W40 even? The answer is you can't. I might have said sulphur but the presence of sulphur-free Group III (and the fact that it can vary so much) diminishes the effect of the sulphur from the Group I. The oil companies could tell you but probably won't. BobbyDavro could tell you but as he quite correctly states, he would be 'jepardising his job' (just for the record, I do know there's an 'o' in jeopardising but I didn't want to be accused of twisting his words).

b) would there be a difference in performance between 10W40's based on a mix of I/III, II/III or all II or 10W40s based on OCP and Shellvis VI (which as BobbyD asserts, you don't need to worry about and anyway would be far too thick to understand!)?

Well there are several answers to that question...

- the official line is, if all these different oils pass the tests specified in SN/A3/B4, then they all meet the requisite standard. That's it. Full stop. Differences in performance? OCI? We don't actually test oils in real cars in real conditions! What are you talking about??? Please go away and stop asking awkward questions!!!

- all the oils are massively over-specified for normal, day-to-day driving so like the man says, 'Don't worry. Be happy.'

- the arrogant/rude/odd/chip-on-shoulder/worked-for-rubbish-second-division-company/dark-heart-full-of-hate answer might go along the lines of... use the oil that gives you the best base oil mix, has the lowest Noack, has the highest HTHS, contains some native base oil sulphur and (possibly) a slug of Moly, and is likely to be the CHEAPEST oil. At the risk of 'quickly-being-picked-apart-by-a-non-existant-man-with-hypothetical-top-secret-real-data', I might guess that that's the Group I/III 10W40 based on 22SSI OCP. But, hey, what do I know?

 

[FCD]

it's pretty interesting sitting here and reading all these posts i'm learning a lot lol

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy

a) How do you tell a Group I/III 10W40 from a Group II/III 10W40 or from an all Group II 10W40 even? The answer is you can't.

b) would there be a difference in performance between 10W40's based on a mix of I/III, II/III or all II or 10W40s
Well there are several answers to that question...

- the official line is, if all these different oils pass the tests specified in SN/A3/B4, then they all meet the requisite standard. That's it. Full stop.

- all the oils are massively over-specified for normal, day-to-day driving

- use the oil that gives you the best base oil mix, has the lowest Noack, has the highest HTHS, contains some native base oil sulphur and (possibly) a slug of Moly, and is likely to be the CHEAPEST oil.

I might guess that that's the Group I/III 10W40 based on 22SSI OCP.


Thanks very much Joe90.

Wow !! Not really what I expected, but that's why I asked, because I don't know.

Why do you like some Group 1 with it's Sulphur ?

As for Cheapest, I'm not too sure if that counts in my area. Everything seems to be grouped into market segments: mineral, semi-synthetic and full synthetic are the three big (and obvious) segments. Then each of these has a sub-group where it tends to be Mobil at the top (most expensive), then Castrol, then Valvoline and then Shell. So for me the cheapest represents a brand (Shell) not a design.

For example M1 0W-40 = $100 for 5L, while Shell Helix Ultra = $65 for 5L.

I understand the concept that all oils with the same spec are equal, and that's the way I usually buy oils. But with some knowledge I was hoping to distinguish which oils easily pass the test as opposed to those that just scraped past. My general assumption is that the big name brands have a lot of value in their reputation, and so they always ensure their product is always good and solidly passes all tests.

My big surprise, is that you picked a I/III over a II/III. If price was exactly the same would you still do that ?
Just an academic question, as I can't tell them apart anyway.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer all my questions. Very much appreciated.

 

[Shannow]

SR5,
I'm not, and won't answer for any of the guys who make oil, but I have a Gr I/II story that was the bane of a couple years of my life.

Previous incarnation as turbine engineer, we had regular condition monitoring of the turbine oils (typically RandO, inhibited, mineral)...did the job always and forever.

RBOT was a pretty standard test, was every 6 months...all good.

We pulled one apart for a major shutdown, and varnish and sludge all through the place.

With the reduction in Oz lubricating oil refining capacity, the industry has switched their lubes to GrII, from the GrI that they always used to be.

The GrII had better oxidation resistance, but their "better" quality meant that there were less "imperfect" molecules with "polarity" (unevenly charged molecules) that kept the varnish in solution easier.

As the GrII worked through the system, the solubility dropped, and the varnish did too, all through the valve gear and caused lots of stiction. Ended up having to clean the parts with lots of polar stuff, water and detergents)

Some of the generators started specifying GrI only, which has to come in as batches.

Gr III (and IV) need "help" in some areas...and GrII probably isn't that help.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Shannow

Gr III (and IV) need "help" in some areas...and GrII probably isn't that help.


Yeah, that makes sense.

So full synthetics G III and GIII/GIV probably get that help with a more extensive add pack (in either dose or content) leading to the higher cost of finished synthetic oil product.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
it's pretty interesting sitting here and reading all these posts i'm learning a lot lol


Yes, cracking thread this one. Full of gems about VII's and base oil groups.

Yet many people will not read it because it's in the Euro oil section, and the title is about a thick mineral oil, not a ILSAC synthetic.

Great thread, thanks all.

 

[SR5]

And to get it all in one place……from another thread that is also worth a read

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3950291/1


Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: SR5
Just say we have three 40 weight oils from the same name brand manufacturer.

The first is a top shelf, full synthetic, 0W-40, MB229.5, BMW LL-01 etc

The second is a middle level, semi-synthetic, 10W-40, A3/B4

The third is a economical to purchase, mineral, 15W-40, SN

What would be the differences in VII's used (type and dose rate)?


0W40 & 10W40 - odds are something like this would use a Styrenic Polymer but the treat rates would vary depending on the base oil choice. For example the 10W40 could have as low as 6-8% and the 0W40 as high as 18%. These VII's are generally more shear stable (5 SSI) but require more product to get the same level of thickening (polymeric efficiency). These polymers get chosen typically for shear stability, deposit control and dispersency are the main issues. Remember VII is only one part of the entire formula - so the formulator has to balance the VII needs with the rest of the DI package involved.

The 15W40 would most likely contain an OCP. probably something in the 25-35 SSI range. These polymers typically have good efficiency (meaning you get the required thickening at smaller concentrations) but they don't have the same level of shear stability and some would say that higher concentrations contribute to deposits in certain engine tests. OCP's are generally the cheaper of the two, so the final price of the product may reflect that.

There are lots of reasons why a formulator or oil marketer would choose to use different VII/VM packages - sometimes it's a performance requirement, sometimes its for reduced manufacturing complexity, sometimes its price. When you think about all the little details that go on to get to that final formula just right - you can probably see why formulators get annoyed when internet gurus and aftermarket companies thinks it's ok to mix in their own "special ingredients" as a way to improve on the formula - especially when there is no standardized testing involved.

 

[Joe90_guy]

SR5,

Yes, it's dirty little secret...I do like a bit of Group I, especially heavy 600SN (and even on occasions, bright stock!), in oil. Even if it's there at just 1%, I reckon it's worth it. It was never something I ever proved but my gut feel was that a concentrated splosh of heavy 'native' sulphur provides a disproportionate benefit to oxidation stability, piston cleanliness and solublising gunk. I often sensed that it was acting synergistically with ZDDP and Moly.

My experience of Group II's mirrors Shannow's. On the surface, everything looks so hunky-dory; great oxidation control,no sulphur, a bit better on VI but then up pops a problem you just wouldn't anticipate like Teost MHT-4 which is a real pain with Group IIs. Despite it's better stability, you can end up adding MORE antioxidant to a Group II oil than to a similar Group I adding significantly to cost.

The relationship between the retail price of an oil, it's production cost and margin by which it has passed engine tests is tenuous to the point of being non-existant. You might think a full synthetic is obviously better than a heavy mineral and quite often this is the case. However it's not always the case because a poorer base oil might often carry a more effective DI. You would be surprised at how often a 20W50 can wipe the floor with a 5W30!

As you might expect, my opinions about 'brands' are not what you might call flattering. The biggest brands can be the most ruthless when it comes to cutting costs out on an oil.

 

[Jetronic]

I work not in the oil industry but in the car manufacturing industry. I've worked for several brands over the years. My experience mirrors yours, Joe90_guy.

The companies with the better sales results (or net profits) are not the ones with the best products, but the ones that are best at cost cutting (or to put it bluntly, selling the biggest [censored] for the most money). A lot of money goes into R&D so copying something from another manufacturer is very profitable, even if you don't understand everything involved. difference is that car manufacturers more easily get bitten if they go to far...

 

[SR5]

Joe90,

I'm running full synthetics right now, but you are making me feel like adding a drop of old school SL or SG 20W-50, just to sweeten the brew. Just a touch, even though it goes against my view of never mixing products.

These monogrades for small engines, would they typically be Grp 1 ?
Maybe 50 ml of a group 1 monograde per synthetic oil change ?

Oh No !!!! I'm turning into a backyard oil mixer !!