Castrol GTX 15w50 Zddp content?

[FCD]

SR5 my engine had been run on Mobil Super 2000 10w40 for 20 years ! The car has been in my family since new so i know what oils they've used, i have had the car for about 15 years now and always thought it'd be ok on 10w40 but now that i run a 20w50 i'm not going back since it burns A LOT less oil, prior to that it had been run on Mobil 1 and Valvoline and Castrol oils , this is 30 years ago though, a good thing about the Mobil Super 2000 semi synthetic oil is that it contains i believe over 1400ppm of zddp

 

[Joe90_guy]

FCD,

I had a browse on t'internet and found Comma X-Flow Type SP 20W50. It's specced as a full mineral SL/CF/A3/B3 oil. According to Comma's PDS, it contains 1000ppm of Phosphorus and has a TBN of 8.7. It's Phos & TBN numbers aren't as high as VR1 but according to Amazon UK, it can be had for £15.37 for 4 litres (with free UK delivery) so it's half the price of VR1.

I honestly don't know this for a fact, but if I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that it's 'one of mine'. So it's good gunk. Nuff said...

Here's the link if you're interested...

http://www.commaoil.com/passenger-vehicles/products/view/430

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
FCD,
Comma X-Flow Type SP 20W50. It's specced as a full mineral SL/CF/A3/B3 oil…….half the price of VR1.

I'd say that it's 'one of mine'. So it's good gunk. Nuff said...

Let's see, TBN = 8.7, Zinc = 1100ppm and it's probably made by Joe90.

Sounds good to me !!!

That's a lot more zinc than an ILSAC oil at about 800ppm.

Joe90, if this is you oil, what's the ratio of Group 1 to Group 2 ? Or does nobody use Group 1 now days.

 

[Joe90_guy]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
FCD,
Comma X-Flow Type SP 20W50. It's specced as a full mineral SL/CF/A3/B3 oil…….half the price of VR1.

I'd say that it's 'one of mine'. So it's good gunk. Nuff said...

Let's see, TBN = 8.7, Zinc = 1100ppm and it's probably made by Joe90.

Sounds good to me !!!

That's a lot more zinc than an ILSAC oil at about 800ppm.

Joe90, if this is you oil, what's the ratio of Group 1 to Group 2 ? Or does nobody use Group 1 now days.


If I were to guess (and I've been away a long time now so it really is a guess), this will be full Group I. There's still a lot of Group I floating around Europe (especially from The Baltic).

One other thing you might be interested in, is that wherever Comma source their DI/VII, chances are that this 20W50 will contain a reasonable slug of Moly which all the AddCo's needed to get full minerals through the Sequence IIIF to the SL limits. It won't be advertised, but it will almost certainly be there. Good news for say, a Capri driver who wants to avoid wear...

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy

If I were to guess (and I've been away a long time now so it really is a guess), this will be full Group I. There's still a lot of Group I floating around Europe (especially from The Baltic).

One other thing you might be interested in, is that wherever Comma source their DI/VII, chances are that this 20W50 will contain a reasonable slug of Moly which all the AddCo's needed to get full minerals through the Sequence IIIF to the SL limits. It won't be advertised, but it will almost certainly be there. Good news for say, a Capri driver who wants to avoid wear...


So when you buy a mineral oil, is there anyway to tell if it's Group 1 or Group 2 ?
I think I recall you saying a 15W-40 SN oil is likely full Group 2 (but I could be mistaken).

To me a Group 2 is better, more chemically and thermally stable. Any advantages to Group 1 ?

All the talk now days is about synthetics, but I wouldn't mind understanding mineral oils better.

 

[FCD]

Comma oils in my opinion have a good reputation but i'd rather not have to order outside of the country, i was also looking at Shell HX7 15w50 , but it's an SN oil which put me off, VR1 by the way is a Group II oil

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
Comma oils in my opinion have a good reputation but i'd rather not have to order outside of the country, i was also looking at Shell HX7 15w50 , but it's an SN oil which put me off, VR1 by the way is a Group II oil


OK so the VR1 is Group 2, that's good to know.

The HX7 should be a semi-synthetic (Group 2 & 3) and even though it's SN, there are no Zinc / Phos limits for non-ILSAC grades, so it can still have decent Zinc levels.

M1 5W-30 (ILSAC) has 900 ppm Zn & 800 ppm Phos, but M1 0W-40 has 1100 ppm Zn & 1000 ppm Phos. and is still SN. The Phos ( and therefore Zn) limits only apply to 20 & 30 weight oils.

 

[FCD]

I didn't know that it's good to know, I've already talked about Castrol Power 1 on here , i can get it online for 27 Euro for a 4 Litre jug , i've read on some forums it's even better than VR1, do you think i should give it a go? Being so cheap it's hard to dismiss it

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
I didn't know that it's good to know, I've already talked about Castrol Power 1 on here , i can get it online for 27 Euro for a 4 Litre jug , i've read on some forums it's even better than VR1, do you think i should give it a go? Being so cheap it's hard to dismiss it


So you get the Power 1 at 27 Euro for 4L and the VR-1 at 33 Euro for 5 L. That fairly similar in $ per L.

I recall talking about the Power 1 motorcycle oil before, is it semi-synthetic ? What are it's specs?

We get a different Power 1 in Australia, both a semi-synthetic 10W-40 and a full synthetic 10W-40, but I assume you can get a 20W-50.

To be honest, I very much like motorcycle oils, they need to be very shear stable and also have high zinc to protect the gear box. I would be very open to using a motorcycle oil in your application.

I don't know about the Castrol product (their data sheets don't say much) but M1 4T 10W-40 motorcycle oil has 1300 ppm Zinc and is API SN and JASO MA1 (wet clutch test). M1 V-Twin 20W-50 motorcycle oil is API SJ and has 1750 ppm Zinc !!

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy


a semi-synthetic Group I/Group III 10W40


So are semi-synthetics Group 1 & Group 3 ?
I always assumed they would be Group 2 & Group 3 ( eg Valvoline DuraBlend 10W-40)

 

[FCD]

It's a Semi Synthetic as far as i know , this is all the data i've found
Density @ 15C, Relative ASTM D4052 g/ml 0.88
Viscosity, Kinematic 100C ASTM D445 mm²/s 17.5
Viscosity, Kinematic 40C ASTM D445 mm²/s 158.1
Viscosity Index ASTM D2270 None 121
Pour Point ASTM D97 °C -36
Total Base Number, TBN ASTM D2896 mg KOH/g 9.58
Flash Point, PMCC ASTM D93 °C 200
On an Opel GT forum it says that it contains around 1000ppm of zddp

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy


a semi-synthetic Group I/Group III 10W40


So are semi-synthetics Group 1 & Group 3 ?
I always assumed they would be Group 2 & Group 3 ( eg Valvoline DuraBlend 10W-40)


Can be either

 

[Joe90_guy]

In answer to the questions...

a) the easiest way to tell a Group I oil from a Group II is the sulphur content. Usually the only sulphur you see in a Group II oil comes from the ZDDP (with a tiny bit from the detergent). If you have an oil that's less than about 0.35 % sulphur, it's likely to be Group II. If well above, it's Group I. Sadly oil companies (and shamefully, PQIA) are reluctant to disclose the sulphur contents of their oils because nosey BITOG'ers like me can suss out what they're up to!

However if you see a mineral oil that's API SM or SN, then it's very likely to be full Group II because it's very difficult (but not impossible) to get a Group I oil through the Sequence IIIG test. VR1 is Group II on this basis.

b) Group I or Group II best? All things being equal, definitely Group II. However if you ask me is the Group I Comma oil better than the Group II VR1, I might answer yes. It's all to do with the DI pack. For a given spec, a Group I oil will need a fatter DI pack to get through something like SL/CF/A3/B3 and in the case of the Capri, I'd opt for a fat pack (and that slug of Moly!) over base oil stability.

c) Euro 10W40 semi-synthetics are traditionally a mix of Group I and Group III. These oils are probably evolving into Group II/ Group III blends as Group II's back fill shuttered Group I refining capacity. While Group II's are more oxidatively stable than Group I's, viscometrically they are more or less equivalent so you can't replace a Group I/Group III blend with all Group II; you will generally need roughly the same amount of Group III in the mix.

It might be worth mentioning that VII polymer selection can have a huge bearing of what base oil mix a 10W40 semi-synthetic has. an oil based on Shellvis VII might contain say 30% Group III. A similar oil based on OCP might contain double that! Of the two oils, the OCP oil will be far superior. How can you tell what oil contains which VII? Well unless you have access to some pretty sophisticated analytical kit, you can't. Personally I think it's about time oil companies were forced to disclose more information about what a oil actually contains. We do this for food. Why not for oils too???

 

[weasley]

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Personally I think it's about time oil companies were forced to disclose more information about what a oil actually contains. We do this for food. Why not for oils too???


Seriously??! Comparing the need to disclose the ingredients of something you ingest to something that you barely even see? Why should the contents of oil be disclosed? You don't need to know what is in them, only how well they perform or their suitability for use in your application, which is disclosed by way of specifications and approvals (set not by the oil marketer but by the OEMs into which the oils go).

 

[FCD]

I think overall though the VR1 is superior to the Comma classic oil

 

[Joe90_guy]

Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Personally I think it's about time oil companies were forced to disclose more information about what a oil actually contains. We do this for food. Why not for oils too???


Seriously??! Comparing the need to disclose the ingredients of something you ingest to something that you barely even see? Why should the contents of oil be disclosed? You don't need to know what is in them, only how well they perform or their suitability for use in your application, which is disclosed by way of specifications and approvals (set not by the oil marketer but by the OEMs into which the oils go).


Hey Weasel!

You do realise that some of us are immune to this self-serving, corporate toadying that you spout? Give it up guy. It's tedious in the extreme...

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Personally I think it's about time oil companies were forced to disclose more information about what a oil actually contains. We do this for food. Why not for oils too???


Seriously??! Comparing the need to disclose the ingredients of something you ingest to something that you barely even see? Why should the contents of oil be disclosed? You don't need to know what is in them, only how well they perform or their suitability for use in your application, which is disclosed by way of specifications and approvals (set not by the oil marketer but by the OEMs into which the oils go).



Hey Weasel!

You do realise that some of us are immune to this self-serving, corporate toadying that you spout? Give it up guy. It's tedious in the extreme...


Why are you so rude? As if any end consumer needs to worry about the type of VII in their engine oil, most of them don't even understand what 5W-30 means let alone specifications. What consumer is going to notice a difference.

You should know a lot about GII/III and I/III in a certain 10W-40 A3/B4 package that disagrees with what you posted.

Not sure I agree on you comments about VII type either. How can you say an OCP is better when it needs twice as much Group III to make up for it's short comings? Its obvious you hate SV because its a competitor technology. Its strange you don't even seem to mention any of the others out there.

What I do find odd - you spent your career at a mid tier additive company giving you only knowledge of one of the big four and hence there is a lot of R+D that you have missed, but your arrogance thinks that your knowledge is above all. Your comments here could be be picked apart in seconds with real data if anyone felt like sharing and jepodising their jobs.

I'm all for sharing knowledge and discussing, many posters here do without issue. You just seem to have a chip on your shoulder about something.

 

[alcyon]

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy


If you compare a mineral Group I 20W50 with a semi-synthetic Group I/Group III 10W40 and a full synthetic Group III/Group IV, then yes, the 20W50 probably does have greater propensity to form varnish and drop out sludge in any climatic conditions.

However in your part of the world, most cheap oils have been moved away from Group I to Group II base oils simply because Group IIs are both cheaper and more widely, commercially available. Group II's don't possess the high VI of Group III and Group IV base oils but they are far more oxidatively stable. This means they have a far lower tendency to form deposits in real life conditions.

I still think HX-3 in Malaysia is group 1. this is based on the varnished choked engine of my friends car, who uses the cheapest oil he can buy, he says its the red bottle shell, so its HX-3. He is always amazed that my car can start with the air cond already switched on, and his cant. His piston rings are probably sticking.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: alcyon

I still think HX-3 in Malaysia is group 1. this is based on the varnished choked engine of my friends car, who uses the cheapest oil he can buy, he says its the red bottle shell, so its HX-3. He is always amazed that my car can start with the air cond already switched on, and his cant. His piston rings are probably sticking.


Hi Alcyon,

In Australia, Shell sell two types of mineral oil, HX3 and HX5, but in limited varieties.
We have Shell Helix HX3 20W-50, API SL. Which I assume is Grp 1.
We also have Shell Helix HX5 15W-40, API SN & ACEA A3/B3. Which I assume is Grp 2.

Looking at the global Shell web site, they also have stuff like
HX2 20W-50 API SG (White Bottle)
HX3 15W-40 API SL (Red Bottle)
HX5 20W-50 API SN (Yellow bottle)

 

[alcyon]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: alcyon

I still think HX-3 in Malaysia is group 1. this is based on the varnished choked engine of my friends car, who uses the cheapest oil he can buy, he says its the red bottle shell, so its HX-3. He is always amazed that my car can start with the air cond already switched on, and his cant. His piston rings are probably sticking.


Hi Alcyon,

In Australia, Shell sell two types of mineral oil, HX3 and HX5, but in limited varieties.
We have Shell Helix HX3 20W-50, API SL. Which I assume is Grp 1.
We also have Shell Helix HX5 15W-40, API SN & ACEA A3/B3. Which I assume is Grp 2.


Its exactly the same here, HX-3 red bottle, HX-5 yellow, HX-7 greenish blue, Helix Ultra Dark Grey.