BobbyDavro, thankyou for all your posts, I enjoyed listening to you.
Industry knowledge is always very valuable and welcome.
Industry knowledge is always very valuable and welcome.
High V.I. oils, on purpose, or consequence??
- Thread starter dailydriver
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
I'm more interested in high performance top tier engine oils so see what these high performing VMs can deliver. Eg less than 2% shear in a KO90.
In theory it might be nice to talk about "high performance" and "top tier" in the way you describe, but we have another way to describe them "over formulated".
The problem with over formulated oils is that they never make it past the development stage. If you were to walk the halls of the R&D facilities of any of the major additive suppliers they have molecules that would blow your mind. Here we debate the need for 0W16 whereas there they are investigating 0W4, new antiwear and fm chemistry that would blow your mind, and magic VM's that keep a fluid the same viscosity regardless of temperature, pressure or any other factors... (ok maybe I'm exaggerating a little on that last one). What is possible to deliver in performance is completely different to what someone is willing to pay for.
THIS^^^ is some of the tech I would like to know/hear about, even if it will NEVER see the light of day/final product use, due to prohibitive component costs, by even the most costly 'boutique' oil blenders.
It does beg the question; Can one actually go backwards (actual NEGATIVE effects) in real world performance with an "over formulated", >$100.00/quart final product oil (as impossible as that would ever be, save for maybe Formula 1 racing circles)?
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
I'm more interested in high performance top tier engine oils so see what these high performing VMs can deliver. Eg less than 2% shear in a KO90.
In theory it might be nice to talk about "high performance" and "top tier" in the way you describe, but we have another way to describe them "over formulated".
The problem with over formulated oils is that they never make it past the development stage. If you were to walk the halls of the R&D facilities of any of the major additive suppliers they have molecules that would blow your mind. Here we debate the need for 0W16 whereas there they are investigating 0W4, new antiwear and fm chemistry that would blow your mind, and magic VM's that keep a fluid the same viscosity regardless of temperature, pressure or any other factors... (ok maybe I'm exaggerating a little on that last one). What is possible to deliver in performance is completely different to what someone is willing to pay for.
THIS^^^ is some of the tech I would like to know/hear about, even if it will NEVER see the light of day/final product use, due to prohibitive component costs, by even the most costly 'boutique' oil blenders.
It does beg the question; Can one actually go backwards (actual NEGATIVE effects) in real world performance with an "over formulated", >$100.00/quart final product oil (as impossible as that would ever be, save for maybe Formula 1 racing circles)?
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
These specs are a huge part of the European market so don't pretend everyone is driving around in cars using 10W-40 A3/B4 with OCP VM.
Just as an incidental observation from a consumer, I always find it interesting to see a 10w-30 A3/B4 mentioned by those in certain countries, well, heck, even in the U.S. I've never come across such an animal here. At one time, if you wanted an A3/B4 oil (without going on some sort of European dealership safari), here, you got GC or nothing.
These specs are a huge part of the European market so don't pretend everyone is driving around in cars using 10W-40 A3/B4 with OCP VM.
Just as an incidental observation from a consumer, I always find it interesting to see a 10w-30 A3/B4 mentioned by those in certain countries, well, heck, even in the U.S. I've never come across such an animal here. At one time, if you wanted an A3/B4 oil (without going on some sort of European dealership safari), here, you got GC or nothing.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Boy that helps to improve the opinion of you
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Brave Sir Robin ran away.
Bravely ran away, away.
When danger rears it's ugly head
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes Brave Sir Robin turned about
He gallantly chickened out...
Kettle.....Black...
You are laughable!
Do you ever have anything useful to add...Ever?
Boy that helps to improve the opinion of you
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Brave Sir Robin ran away.
Bravely ran away, away.
When danger rears it's ugly head
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes Brave Sir Robin turned about
He gallantly chickened out...
Kettle.....Black...
You are laughable!
Do you ever have anything useful to add...Ever?
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Lex94
Kettle.....Black...
You are laughable!
Do you ever have anything useful to add...Ever?
Well, you're free to read back on all my posts and make that determination yourself. One thing I can promise is that when I am in a discussion and it's not going my way, never have I resorted to a childish poem that demeans another poster's statements. Up until it got that way this was an interesting thread that unlike many, had technical information that I found interesting and useful.
Sure, I call out people in threads when they make statements that aren't based in facts. I have a little chemistry knowledge and a little more engineering, but nothing regarding oil like the people in this thread had. I'm sorry it disintegrated like it did and my comment was directed to the person whom I thought had the hand in doing that.
Kettle.....Black...
You are laughable!
Do you ever have anything useful to add...Ever?
Well, you're free to read back on all my posts and make that determination yourself. One thing I can promise is that when I am in a discussion and it's not going my way, never have I resorted to a childish poem that demeans another poster's statements. Up until it got that way this was an interesting thread that unlike many, had technical information that I found interesting and useful.
Sure, I call out people in threads when they make statements that aren't based in facts. I have a little chemistry knowledge and a little more engineering, but nothing regarding oil like the people in this thread had. I'm sorry it disintegrated like it did and my comment was directed to the person whom I thought had the hand in doing that.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Joe90_guy said:In response to the various posts that came in while I was asleep...
and especially adding the mPAO oils have an advantage to those conditions I mentioned above.
Ha, woke up?
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Lex94
Kettle.....Black...
You are laughable!
Do you ever have anything useful to add...Ever?
Well, you're free to read back on all my posts and make that determination yourself. One thing I can promise is that when I am in a discussion and it's not going my way, never have I resorted to a childish poem
It's not a poem, it's a song and when was Monty Python ever childish? Here it is in full for your edification...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFdgjYoBMIg
Originally Posted By: Lex94
Kettle.....Black...
You are laughable!
Do you ever have anything useful to add...Ever?
Well, you're free to read back on all my posts and make that determination yourself. One thing I can promise is that when I am in a discussion and it's not going my way, never have I resorted to a childish poem
It's not a poem, it's a song and when was Monty Python ever childish? Here it is in full for your edification...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFdgjYoBMIg
Yes I recognised it as Monty Python (Holy Grail), a most excellent movie.
Before Shannow and I were talking about an old Australian TV commercial
(Antz Pantz - sic 'em Rex)
Here it is, of those who have never had the pleasure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ac9XE2Koxg
Before Shannow and I were talking about an old Australian TV commercial
(Antz Pantz - sic 'em Rex)
Here it is, of those who have never had the pleasure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ac9XE2Koxg
Excellent! I've not seen this ad before. Ozzie's do brilliant adverts because like us, they comprehend the concept of irony (seems not everyone does)...
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
These specs are a huge part of the European market so don't pretend everyone is driving around in cars using 10W-40 A3/B4 with OCP VM.
Just as an incidental observation from a consumer, I always find it interesting to see a 10w-30 A3/B4 mentioned by those in certain countries, well, heck, even in the U.S. I've never come across such an animal here. At one time, if you wanted an A3/B4 oil (without going on some sort of European dealership safari), here, you got GC or nothing.
10W30 A3/B3 is big in China for whatever reason...
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
These specs are a huge part of the European market so don't pretend everyone is driving around in cars using 10W-40 A3/B4 with OCP VM.
Just as an incidental observation from a consumer, I always find it interesting to see a 10w-30 A3/B4 mentioned by those in certain countries, well, heck, even in the U.S. I've never come across such an animal here. At one time, if you wanted an A3/B4 oil (without going on some sort of European dealership safari), here, you got GC or nothing.
10W30 A3/B3 is big in China for whatever reason...
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
In advanced Organic Chemistry courses we take 1/3 of the semester to discuss polymer science.
For those wanting to further investigate this fascinating aspect of Organic Chemistry, here is one Journal devoted to the topic:
Journal of Applied Polymer Science
This is a great conversation that I am very much enjoying. Thanks all.
That is a great Journal that I have proudly published in a few times. But having said that, I am only a interested amateur when it comes to lubrication chemistry, and each field has it's own minute detail and language. So if the experts could explain a little more long hand, and define a few more acronyms along the way, that would help me (and possibly a few others) follow the conversation a little better. Only a respectful request and only if it doesn't break the flow of an enjoyable thread.
What terms would you like to have further defined?
You are a Gentleman MolaKule !!
However, having read the thread again, it's more that I wasn't keeping up, rather than many things were left undefined. A little googling helped too.
Here is my list acronyms from this thread, all in one place. Please correct me if I got any wrong. Yes many are well known. I do have a few blanks though
VI - viscosity index
VM - viscosity modifier
VII - viscosity index improvers
DI - Detergent Inhibitor package (not direct injection)
FM - Friction Modifiers
J300 - engine oil standard (SAE)
KV - Kinematic Viscosity
HTHS - High Temperature High Shear viscosity
CCS - cold cranking simulator (cold start cranking)
MRV - Mini Rorary viscometer values (cold start pumping)
AGMA - American Gear Manufacturers Association
ILMA - Independent Lubricant Manufacturers Association
PAO - polyalphaolefins
mPAO - metallocene polyalphaolefin base stock
OCP - olefin co-polymers
PMA - poly-methacrylates
shellvis - a styrene-butadiene
Lz - Lubrizol
EHD - elastohydrodynamic lubrication
SV - Infineum start stracture polymer VM
KO30 - Shear test
Pants - bad
PIB -
TU5 -
VW T4 -
22 SSI
Sv250, Sv300, Sv150 DVM, Sv 600, etc - type of Infineum star polymer VM ? (some more details?)
Polymeric efficiency - I assume a low dose is required for a given VM effect?
Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
In advanced Organic Chemistry courses we take 1/3 of the semester to discuss polymer science.
For those wanting to further investigate this fascinating aspect of Organic Chemistry, here is one Journal devoted to the topic:
Journal of Applied Polymer Science
This is a great conversation that I am very much enjoying. Thanks all.
That is a great Journal that I have proudly published in a few times. But having said that, I am only a interested amateur when it comes to lubrication chemistry, and each field has it's own minute detail and language. So if the experts could explain a little more long hand, and define a few more acronyms along the way, that would help me (and possibly a few others) follow the conversation a little better. Only a respectful request and only if it doesn't break the flow of an enjoyable thread.
What terms would you like to have further defined?
You are a Gentleman MolaKule !!
However, having read the thread again, it's more that I wasn't keeping up, rather than many things were left undefined. A little googling helped too.
Here is my list acronyms from this thread, all in one place. Please correct me if I got any wrong. Yes many are well known. I do have a few blanks though
VI - viscosity index
VM - viscosity modifier
VII - viscosity index improvers
DI - Detergent Inhibitor package (not direct injection)
FM - Friction Modifiers
J300 - engine oil standard (SAE)
KV - Kinematic Viscosity
HTHS - High Temperature High Shear viscosity
CCS - cold cranking simulator (cold start cranking)
MRV - Mini Rorary viscometer values (cold start pumping)
AGMA - American Gear Manufacturers Association
ILMA - Independent Lubricant Manufacturers Association
PAO - polyalphaolefins
mPAO - metallocene polyalphaolefin base stock
OCP - olefin co-polymers
PMA - poly-methacrylates
shellvis - a styrene-butadiene
Lz - Lubrizol
EHD - elastohydrodynamic lubrication
SV - Infineum start stracture polymer VM
KO30 - Shear test
Pants - bad
PIB -
TU5 -
VW T4 -
22 SSI
Sv250, Sv300, Sv150 DVM, Sv 600, etc - type of Infineum star polymer VM ? (some more details?)
Polymeric efficiency - I assume a low dose is required for a given VM effect?
Originally Posted By: SR5
Yes I recognised it as Monty Python (Holy Grail), a most excellent movie.
Before Shannow and I were talking about an old Australian TV commercial
(Antz Pantz - sic 'em Rex)
Here it is, of those who have never had the pleasure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ac9XE2Koxg
I will never forget that add as long as I live.
It was a unique blend of fun and sexy never to be repeated.
I'm glad it was in my era.
Yes I recognised it as Monty Python (Holy Grail), a most excellent movie.
Before Shannow and I were talking about an old Australian TV commercial
(Antz Pantz - sic 'em Rex)
Here it is, of those who have never had the pleasure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ac9XE2Koxg
I will never forget that add as long as I live.
It was a unique blend of fun and sexy never to be repeated.
I'm glad it was in my era.
Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
In advanced Organic Chemistry courses we take 1/3 of the semester to discuss polymer science.
For those wanting to further investigate this fascinating aspect of Organic Chemistry, here is one Journal devoted to the topic:
Journal of Applied Polymer Science
This is a great conversation that I am very much enjoying. Thanks all.
That is a great Journal that I have proudly published in a few times. But having said that, I am only a interested amateur when it comes to lubrication chemistry, and each field has it's own minute detail and language. So if the experts could explain a little more long hand, and define a few more acronyms along the way, that would help me (and possibly a few others) follow the conversation a little better. Only a respectful request and only if it doesn't break the flow of an enjoyable thread.
What terms would you like to have further defined?
You are a Gentleman MolaKule !!
However, having read the thread again, it's more that I wasn't keeping up, rather than many things were left undefined. A little googling helped too.
Here is my list acronyms from this thread, all in one place. Please correct me if I got any wrong. Yes many are well known. I do have a few blanks though
VI - viscosity index
VM - viscosity modifier
VII - viscosity index improvers
DI - Detergent Inhibitor package (not direct injection)
FM - Friction Modifiers
J300 - engine oil standard (SAE)
KV - Kinematic Viscosity
HTHS - High Temperature High Shear viscosity
CCS - cold cranking simulator (cold start cranking)
MRV - Mini Rorary viscometer values (cold start pumping)
AGMA - American Gear Manufacturers Association
ILMA - Independent Lubricant Manufacturers Association
PAO - polyalphaolefins
mPAO - metallocene polyalphaolefin base stock
OCP - olefin co-polymers
PMA - poly-methacrylates
shellvis - a styrene-butadiene
Lz - Lubrizol
EHD - elastohydrodynamic lubrication
SV - Infineum start stracture polymer VM
KO30 - Shear test
Pants - bad
PIB -
TU5 -
VW T4 -
22 SSI
Sv250, Sv300, Sv150 DVM, Sv 600, etc - type of Infineum star polymer VM ? (some more details?)
Polymeric efficiency - I assume a low dose is required for a given VM effect?
You forgot ants in pants combined with drop dead sex woman and Echidna = good and sexy.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
In advanced Organic Chemistry courses we take 1/3 of the semester to discuss polymer science.
For those wanting to further investigate this fascinating aspect of Organic Chemistry, here is one Journal devoted to the topic:
Journal of Applied Polymer Science
This is a great conversation that I am very much enjoying. Thanks all.
That is a great Journal that I have proudly published in a few times. But having said that, I am only a interested amateur when it comes to lubrication chemistry, and each field has it's own minute detail and language. So if the experts could explain a little more long hand, and define a few more acronyms along the way, that would help me (and possibly a few others) follow the conversation a little better. Only a respectful request and only if it doesn't break the flow of an enjoyable thread.
What terms would you like to have further defined?
You are a Gentleman MolaKule !!
However, having read the thread again, it's more that I wasn't keeping up, rather than many things were left undefined. A little googling helped too.
Here is my list acronyms from this thread, all in one place. Please correct me if I got any wrong. Yes many are well known. I do have a few blanks though
VI - viscosity index
VM - viscosity modifier
VII - viscosity index improvers
DI - Detergent Inhibitor package (not direct injection)
FM - Friction Modifiers
J300 - engine oil standard (SAE)
KV - Kinematic Viscosity
HTHS - High Temperature High Shear viscosity
CCS - cold cranking simulator (cold start cranking)
MRV - Mini Rorary viscometer values (cold start pumping)
AGMA - American Gear Manufacturers Association
ILMA - Independent Lubricant Manufacturers Association
PAO - polyalphaolefins
mPAO - metallocene polyalphaolefin base stock
OCP - olefin co-polymers
PMA - poly-methacrylates
shellvis - a styrene-butadiene
Lz - Lubrizol
EHD - elastohydrodynamic lubrication
SV - Infineum start stracture polymer VM
KO30 - Shear test
Pants - bad
PIB -
TU5 -
VW T4 -
22 SSI
Sv250, Sv300, Sv150 DVM, Sv 600, etc - type of Infineum star polymer VM ? (some more details?)
Polymeric efficiency - I assume a low dose is required for a given VM effect?
You forgot ants in pants combined with drop dead sex woman and Echidna = good and sexy.
PIB - Poly Iso-Butylene (the starting point for ashless dispersant)
PIBSA - PIB Succinic Acid (ashless intermediate)
TU5 - the Peugeot TU5 gasoline engine test in ACEA A3
VW T4 - a silly Volkswagen test which fiddles it's own emissions
SSI - Shear Stability Index of a VII polymer
Shellvis - a VII polymer known for starting fights on BITOG
Polymeric Efficiency - a measure of a VII's ability to meet a complex, pre-defined set of viscometric/volatility targets at the lowest possible polymer treat rate
Polymeric Cost-Efficiency - something grubby to do with money that only filthy working class people whose crockery is too thick talk about
PIBSA - PIB Succinic Acid (ashless intermediate)
TU5 - the Peugeot TU5 gasoline engine test in ACEA A3
VW T4 - a silly Volkswagen test which fiddles it's own emissions
SSI - Shear Stability Index of a VII polymer
Shellvis - a VII polymer known for starting fights on BITOG
Polymeric Efficiency - a measure of a VII's ability to meet a complex, pre-defined set of viscometric/volatility targets at the lowest possible polymer treat rate
Polymeric Cost-Efficiency - something grubby to do with money that only filthy working class people whose crockery is too thick talk about
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
It's not a poem, it's a song and when was Monty Python ever childish? Here it is in full for your edification...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFdgjYoBMIg
Thanks for edification. Actually I am a fairly big Monty Python fan but I missed that one.
Still a childish response as far as I'm concerned.
It's not a poem, it's a song and when was Monty Python ever childish? Here it is in full for your edification...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFdgjYoBMIg
Thanks for edification. Actually I am a fairly big Monty Python fan but I missed that one.
Still a childish response as far as I'm concerned.
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
PIB - Poly Iso-Butylene (the starting point for ashless dispersant)
PIBSA - PIB Succinic Acid (ashless intermediate)
TU5 - the Peugeot TU5 gasoline engine test in ACEA A3
VW T4 - a silly Volkswagen test which fiddles it's own emissions
SSI - Shear Stability Index of a VII polymer
Shellvis - a VII polymer known for starting fights on BITOG
Polymeric Efficiency - a measure of a VII's ability to meet a complex, pre-defined set of viscometric/volatility targets at the lowest possible polymer treat rate
Polymeric Cost-Efficiency - something grubby to do with money that only filthy working class people whose crockery is too thick talk about
Thanks Joe90
PIB - Poly Iso-Butylene (the starting point for ashless dispersant)
PIBSA - PIB Succinic Acid (ashless intermediate)
TU5 - the Peugeot TU5 gasoline engine test in ACEA A3
VW T4 - a silly Volkswagen test which fiddles it's own emissions
SSI - Shear Stability Index of a VII polymer
Shellvis - a VII polymer known for starting fights on BITOG
Polymeric Efficiency - a measure of a VII's ability to meet a complex, pre-defined set of viscometric/volatility targets at the lowest possible polymer treat rate
Polymeric Cost-Efficiency - something grubby to do with money that only filthy working class people whose crockery is too thick talk about
Thanks Joe90
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
THIS^^^ is some of the tech I would like to know/hear about, even if it will NEVER see the light of day/final product use, due to prohibitive component costs, by even the most costly 'boutique' oil blenders.
It does beg the question; Can one actually go backwards (actual NEGATIVE effects) in real world performance with an "over formulated", >$100.00/quart final product oil (as impossible as that would ever be, save for maybe Formula 1 racing circles)?
Unfortunately for the masses these techs are carefully guarded trade secrets - I took a tour once where an R&D lab was developing a new test method which would be used to develop some new dispersants and they couldn't even show me the equipment that's how secret it was. Often times the R&D guys are working on problems that are years away - or someone comes up with new chemistry that does something cool or has an unexpected side effect and it gets shelved for years until they company needs a new great idea.
In another thread about ULV engine oils I talked about the future oils enabling new hardware technologies and even though much of the chemistry has been developed for these applications they still haven't worked out all the details of scaling it up or rolling it out to the masses. But if you are interested in this technology pay close attention to the new products coming out - especially the FA-4 and GF-6B products because that's where most of the exciting new chemistry will be found.
THIS^^^ is some of the tech I would like to know/hear about, even if it will NEVER see the light of day/final product use, due to prohibitive component costs, by even the most costly 'boutique' oil blenders.
It does beg the question; Can one actually go backwards (actual NEGATIVE effects) in real world performance with an "over formulated", >$100.00/quart final product oil (as impossible as that would ever be, save for maybe Formula 1 racing circles)?
Unfortunately for the masses these techs are carefully guarded trade secrets - I took a tour once where an R&D lab was developing a new test method which would be used to develop some new dispersants and they couldn't even show me the equipment that's how secret it was. Often times the R&D guys are working on problems that are years away - or someone comes up with new chemistry that does something cool or has an unexpected side effect and it gets shelved for years until they company needs a new great idea.
In another thread about ULV engine oils I talked about the future oils enabling new hardware technologies and even though much of the chemistry has been developed for these applications they still haven't worked out all the details of scaling it up or rolling it out to the masses. But if you are interested in this technology pay close attention to the new products coming out - especially the FA-4 and GF-6B products because that's where most of the exciting new chemistry will be found.
Just say we have three 40 weight oils from the same name brand manufacturer.
The first is a top shelf, full synthetic, 0W-40, MB229.5, BMW LL-01 etc
The second is a middle level, semi-synthetic, 10W-40, A3/B4
The third is a economical to purchase, mineral, 15W-40, SN
What would be the differences in VII's used (type and dose rate)?
Would there be a big difference in the quality of the VII's that is reflected in the purchase price of the product. Or is it more base stock and marketing ?
For me a full synthetic is about 250% more expensive than a name brand mineral.
The first is a top shelf, full synthetic, 0W-40, MB229.5, BMW LL-01 etc
The second is a middle level, semi-synthetic, 10W-40, A3/B4
The third is a economical to purchase, mineral, 15W-40, SN
What would be the differences in VII's used (type and dose rate)?
Would there be a big difference in the quality of the VII's that is reflected in the purchase price of the product. Or is it more base stock and marketing ?
For me a full synthetic is about 250% more expensive than a name brand mineral.
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