Originally Posted By: dave5358
If I say "your product is snake oil but my product is 'fully formulated', do you know any more about the products? Well, other than I like my product and dislike yours? It's just a form of name calling - nothing more. And, it provides no useful information about the products.
However, what I'd consider to be a fully formulated product tends to meet actual industry accepted tests and have approvals. As for the PQIA, I've been through this in another thread recently, and several times over the last few years. The PQIA isn't out there to determine which oil is better than another. They cannot determine base stocks, let alone any of the newer additives, with which guys like Mola are much more familiar. The PQIA tests are there to determine whether a product meets the claimed API service categories and labeled viscosity. Even in that regard, they don't run everything involved to get API or ILSAC certification. They don't even test for HTHS.
Some products intentionally avoid moly. Cost may be a concern. They are more likely using different friction modifiers. Maybe the chief chemist wants to use it in his motorcycle, too, which still having the appropriate SN/GF-5 certification for mass consumption. As I already said, moly is only one class of friction modifier, and the PPM tells one little. I might be able to guess that a company is using trimer moly, but I have no idea. I certainly have no idea what other friction modifiers may be present that don't show up in a cheap VOA.
Fully synthetic is of course, these days, a marketing term. It doesn't matter. Even in Germany, where the definition is supposedly important, companies just invent new words, muddying the waters. I prefer the old style rigorous definitions, but just because something is PAO based, for instance, doesn't mean it's superior under all circumstances, or even any circumstances.
As for companies and snake oil, while I have used a lot of Quaker State, one still has to choose carefully. Quaker State Ultimate Durability is (in the appropriate viscosities) an SN/GF-5 oil. So is Lucas Synthetic 5w-30. In most applications, they'd be absolutely interchangeable. If you changed my oil and didn't tell me which was in there, I would never know, nor would my engine care.
However, I won't use Slick 50, no matter who manufacturers it, and the same goes for Lucas Oil Stabilizer. Neither have any certification, much less endorsements from manufacturers. My G37 allows for SM/GF-4 5w-30 or better. So, QSUD 5w-30 and Lucas Synthetic 5w-30 would be just fine. Also, some manufacturers have relationships with Quaker State (and others, of course), for factory fills and service fills. I don't know of any owner's manual or shop manual that calls for Slick 50 or LOS. QSUD is also dexos1 certified. I don't know of any dexos1 certified Slick 50 or LOS.
What's "in" Bestline Engine Treatment is irrelevant to me. Unless it's actually relabeled Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 (and at a lower price point), it's not going into my G37's crankcase right now. Unless it's relabeled RP 0w-40, it's not going in my snowblower, either.
I have no idea what's in the stuff, and I can't think of any ingredients my oil needs, since I don't know what's "in" them right now, much less what could even remotely be lacking. When my soup isn't salty enough for my taste, I add salt. I don't make the soup first, decline to taste test it, then put a blindfold on and grab something randomly from the spice rack and dump it in willy nilly. Do you? I wouldn't decide, either, that I know more than a chef about ingredients. For instance, should I just decide to add mustard powder to cherry Jell-o, simply because it's missing from the original formulation?
Stregone: Of course oil companies have the objective to make money. They wouldn't be providing gas or motor oil for very long without profitability. In any case, that's why there are standards, including API service category, ILSAC classification, ACEA specifications, and builder approvals. If you want oils that meet none of these standards and are just garbage ingredients designed to make money without any regard for the customer whatsoever (or the company's "good" name), there are such products. Check the PQIA blacklisted products for more information.
If I say "your product is snake oil but my product is 'fully formulated', do you know any more about the products? Well, other than I like my product and dislike yours? It's just a form of name calling - nothing more. And, it provides no useful information about the products.
However, what I'd consider to be a fully formulated product tends to meet actual industry accepted tests and have approvals. As for the PQIA, I've been through this in another thread recently, and several times over the last few years. The PQIA isn't out there to determine which oil is better than another. They cannot determine base stocks, let alone any of the newer additives, with which guys like Mola are much more familiar. The PQIA tests are there to determine whether a product meets the claimed API service categories and labeled viscosity. Even in that regard, they don't run everything involved to get API or ILSAC certification. They don't even test for HTHS.
Some products intentionally avoid moly. Cost may be a concern. They are more likely using different friction modifiers. Maybe the chief chemist wants to use it in his motorcycle, too, which still having the appropriate SN/GF-5 certification for mass consumption. As I already said, moly is only one class of friction modifier, and the PPM tells one little. I might be able to guess that a company is using trimer moly, but I have no idea. I certainly have no idea what other friction modifiers may be present that don't show up in a cheap VOA.
Fully synthetic is of course, these days, a marketing term. It doesn't matter. Even in Germany, where the definition is supposedly important, companies just invent new words, muddying the waters. I prefer the old style rigorous definitions, but just because something is PAO based, for instance, doesn't mean it's superior under all circumstances, or even any circumstances.
As for companies and snake oil, while I have used a lot of Quaker State, one still has to choose carefully. Quaker State Ultimate Durability is (in the appropriate viscosities) an SN/GF-5 oil. So is Lucas Synthetic 5w-30. In most applications, they'd be absolutely interchangeable. If you changed my oil and didn't tell me which was in there, I would never know, nor would my engine care.
However, I won't use Slick 50, no matter who manufacturers it, and the same goes for Lucas Oil Stabilizer. Neither have any certification, much less endorsements from manufacturers. My G37 allows for SM/GF-4 5w-30 or better. So, QSUD 5w-30 and Lucas Synthetic 5w-30 would be just fine. Also, some manufacturers have relationships with Quaker State (and others, of course), for factory fills and service fills. I don't know of any owner's manual or shop manual that calls for Slick 50 or LOS. QSUD is also dexos1 certified. I don't know of any dexos1 certified Slick 50 or LOS.
What's "in" Bestline Engine Treatment is irrelevant to me. Unless it's actually relabeled Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 (and at a lower price point), it's not going into my G37's crankcase right now. Unless it's relabeled RP 0w-40, it's not going in my snowblower, either.
I have no idea what's in the stuff, and I can't think of any ingredients my oil needs, since I don't know what's "in" them right now, much less what could even remotely be lacking. When my soup isn't salty enough for my taste, I add salt. I don't make the soup first, decline to taste test it, then put a blindfold on and grab something randomly from the spice rack and dump it in willy nilly. Do you? I wouldn't decide, either, that I know more than a chef about ingredients. For instance, should I just decide to add mustard powder to cherry Jell-o, simply because it's missing from the original formulation?
Stregone: Of course oil companies have the objective to make money. They wouldn't be providing gas or motor oil for very long without profitability. In any case, that's why there are standards, including API service category, ILSAC classification, ACEA specifications, and builder approvals. If you want oils that meet none of these standards and are just garbage ingredients designed to make money without any regard for the customer whatsoever (or the company's "good" name), there are such products. Check the PQIA blacklisted products for more information.