Amsoil not making PAO base synthetic oil anymore?

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w

I think Mobil started it with their complaints about Castrol USA's marketing of a group III base Syntec as "synthetic". They were trying to gain a marketing advantage. Maybe even at the time a group IV/V base oil produced a better product, but these days the technology has advanced to the point where I believe "synthetic" is just another buzzword that's placed on the label to get people to pay more. Now it may be a better product regardless of what's in it, but if it doesn't say "synthetic" on the label, few people would pay a premium for it.

Agreed.

How many people in the target market (aside from a few BITOG members) would know what it meant if it said "PAO" on the label? And of those few, how many would actually care? And of those few that cared, how many would be willing to pay more for it?

I think the days when you could run a successful marketing campaign and win a large market by saying that your oil is predominantly PAO are over. You would have to prove to the general public that such a product would make your engine last and that other products with less or no PAO would make your engine blow up. And we all know this is not true.

On top of it, oil base is just one of many pieces to the puzzle and does not a good oil make all by itself. No owner's manual will say "use PAO-based oil." PAO is not a spec. That's why engine manufacturers have invented performance specs to get away from the whole marketing game of mineral/synthetic/fake synthetic slogans. Here is the spec that you must meet. How you do it and what ingredients you use, we couldn't care less. And you as a consumer shouldn't care either, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Flareside302]

Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
Who cares what the base oils are. What matters is industry and OEM approvals, and Amsoil is pretty lacking. And it's expensive. Anyone who'd use it over M1, PP, PU, etc is out of their mind.


The only Amsoil that's lacking API cert is SS but that's due to the way they formulate it would be too expensive to recertified if they're base oil supplier were to run low on supply.. It's by that they wouldn't pass..

They choose not to play the [censored] games like GM's DEXOS cert.. They exceed all stuff for it.. Just choose not to pay.. Same as valvoline's thought.

OE & XL are right there even price wise per quart as other synthetics, and SS is only slightly higher but goes 25k miles.. That right there knocks down the cost per mile to less than a 10k mile OCI on like Mobil 1 etc...

Your just an Amsoil hater as a lot of people on this sight are

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
What matters is industry and OEM approvals, and Amsoil is pretty lacking. And it's expensive. Anyone who'd use it over M1, PP, PU, etc is out of their mind.

To get officially certified against these OEM approvals can be expensive and hard to justify for a smaller blender such as Amsoil. I'm sure someone over there did the math and decided it won't produce enough additional income to be justified. Instead, Amsoil just says "recommended for" and backs it with their own engine warranty, which is fair, IMO. Now, if you have a new car that's under mfg warranty, it's a different story. Worst case scenario - should any engine problems occur, you'll find yourself between a rock and a hard place with the engine manufacturer and the oil manufacturer playing ping-pong. It's an unlikely scenario, but it's there.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Tiboi
Quote:
Amsoil religion? That's a new one on me!

By your answers, it seems like you are into it already LOL



And you would be dead wrong.

By your comments and answers, it appears you are looking to create some Amsoil controversy because of some deep seated bias and lack of information as to how a fully formulated lube is developed.

If you don't like Amsoil, fine, don't use it, but don't malign a product with innuendos and without factual data to back it up.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
What matters is industry and OEM approvals, and Amsoil is pretty lacking. And it's expensive. Anyone who'd use it over M1, PP, PU, etc is out of their mind.

To get officially certified against these OEM approvals can be expensive and hard to justify for a smaller blender such as Amsoil. I'm sure someone over there did the math and decided it won't produce enough additional income to be justified. Instead, Amsoil just says "recommended for" and backs it with their own engine warranty, which is fair, IMO. Now, if you have a new car that's under mfg warranty, it's a different story. Worst case scenario - should any engine problems occur, you'll find yourself between a rock and a hard place with the engine manufacturer and the oil manufacturer playing ping-pong. It's an unlikely scenario, but it's there.

I don't think they're really a "small blender" that doesn't do it because of cost. Their top selling lines don't carry API certs, but their lines marketed towards the normal OCI market do. I know what they claim, but it seems like what they're really doing is fudging on the API specifications a bit because they feel it creates a better product, and then saying "recommended for API SN" rather than "meets API SN". I thought there were virgin oil analysis samples that measured high zinc and phosphorous levels.

Red Line plays this game too, although I've never heard them claim that they couldn't afford the certifications. Their 75W90NS gear oil says "recommended for API GL-5 in manual transmissions" and they go in depth as to why (no LSD additive that isn't needed for most manual transmissions without an LSD). They fully say that their 75W90 is an API GL-5 gear oil, but that they only recommend it for specific LSD use.

 

[vinu_neuro]

Originally Posted By: Flareside302
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
Who cares what the base oils are. What matters is industry and OEM approvals, and Amsoil is pretty lacking. And it's expensive. Anyone who'd use it over M1, PP, PU, etc is out of their mind.


The only Amsoil that's lacking API cert is SS but that's due to the way they formulate it would be too expensive to recertified if they're base oil supplier were to run low on supply.. It's by that they wouldn't pass..

They choose not to play the [censored] games like GM's DEXOS cert.. They exceed all stuff for it.. Just choose not to pay.. Same as valvoline's thought.

OE & XL are right there even price wise per quart as other synthetics, and SS is only slightly higher but goes 25k miles.. That right there knocks down the cost per mile to less than a 10k mile OCI on like Mobil 1 etc...

Your just an Amsoil hater as a lot of people on this sight are


Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
What matters is industry and OEM approvals, and Amsoil is pretty lacking. And it's expensive. Anyone who'd use it over M1, PP, PU, etc is out of their mind.

To get officially certified against these OEM approvals can be expensive and hard to justify for a smaller blender such as Amsoil. I'm sure someone over there did the math and decided it won't produce enough additional income to be justified. Instead, Amsoil just says "recommended for" and backs it with their own engine warranty, which is fair, IMO. Now, if you have a new car that's under mfg warranty, it's a different story. Worst case scenario - should any engine problems occur, you'll find yourself between a rock and a hard place with the engine manufacturer and the oil manufacturer playing ping-pong. It's an unlikely scenario, but it's there.


OEM performance standards like dexos and Euro ones are extremely demanding. Amsoil saying that they meet it doesn't mean squat. So whether or not Amsoil performs to those standards is questionable. Paying how much they charge for that questionable performance vs. what M1, Pennzoil, etc cost at Walmart is ridiculous.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
I know what they claim, but it seems like what they're really doing is fudging on the API specifications a bit because they feel it creates a better product, and then saying "recommended for API SN" rather than "meets API SN".


If they said it met API SN then they would have gone ahead and had it put through the API series of certification tests at > $250,000 per oil, which in my view, is a ripoff.

Just remember, the API certification is simply a "minimal" standard.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
Paying how much they charge for that questionable performance vs. what M1, Pennzoil, etc cost at Walmart is ridiculous.

No doubt. Considering how much M1 0w-40 sells for at Walmart, everything else pales in comparison.

But as far as questionable performance, have you ever come across a documented case where an Amsoil product caused a lubrication issue in a Euro engine?

By the way, I am not an Amsoil fanboy by any means. I have never used their products.

 

[Flareside302]

Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
Originally Posted By: Flareside302
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
Who cares what the base oils are. What matters is industry and OEM approvals, and Amsoil is pretty lacking. And it's expensive. Anyone who'd use it over M1, PP, PU, etc is out of their mind.


The only Amsoil that's lacking API cert is SS but that's due to the way they formulate it would be too expensive to recertified if they're base oil supplier were to run low on supply.. It's by that they wouldn't pass..

They choose not to play the [censored] games like GM's DEXOS cert.. They exceed all stuff for it.. Just choose not to pay.. Same as valvoline's thought.

OE & XL are right there even price wise per quart as other synthetics, and SS is only slightly higher but goes 25k miles.. That right there knocks down the cost per mile to less than a 10k mile OCI on like Mobil 1 etc...

Your just an Amsoil hater as a lot of people on this sight are


Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
What matters is industry and OEM approvals, and Amsoil is pretty lacking. And it's expensive. Anyone who'd use it over M1, PP, PU, etc is out of their mind.

To get officially certified against these OEM approvals can be expensive and hard to justify for a smaller blender such as Amsoil. I'm sure someone over there did the math and decided it won't produce enough additional income to be justified. Instead, Amsoil just says "recommended for" and backs it with their own engine warranty, which is fair, IMO. Now, if you have a new car that's under mfg warranty, it's a different story. Worst case scenario - should any engine problems occur, you'll find yourself between a rock and a hard place with the engine manufacturer and the oil manufacturer playing ping-pong. It's an unlikely scenario, but it's there.


OEM performance standards like dexos and Euro ones are extremely demanding. Amsoil saying that they meet it doesn't mean squat. So whether or not Amsoil performs to those standards is questionable. Paying how much they charge for that questionable performance vs. what M1, Pennzoil, etc cost at Walmart is ridiculous.


Go chew Ashland's [censored] then.. They are in the same thought as Amsoil.. It's not worth the extra certifications for DEXOS..

And they can definitely claim they meet or exceed the specs for DEXOS etc, cause they have access to the specs to pass they certifications.. So they can test it in house and know it can. All oil blenders hae access to it so they can blend, test in house then when they're happy with it take it to GM etc.. So no problem passing..

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Flareside302
It's not worth the extra certifications for DEXOS..

And they can definitely claim they meet or exceed the specs for DEXOS

Isn't the issue with dexos that an oil manufacturer has to pay X% or X cents to GM for every bottle of oil sold carrying the DEXOS logo?

 

[Flareside302]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Flareside302
It's not worth the extra certifications for DEXOS..

And they can definitely claim they meet or exceed the specs for DEXOS

Isn't the issue with dexos that an oil manufacturer has to pay X% or X cents to GM for every bottle of oil sold carrying the DEXOS logo?


I'm not sure exactly.. I know it's GM's way of trying to get back money they loose on OC's IMO.. But not sure of exact details. I'm not sure anyone on this site knows the details of the cost.. No matter what any of em says..

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Flareside302
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Flareside302
It's not worth the extra certifications for DEXOS..

And they can definitely claim they meet or exceed the specs for DEXOS

Isn't the issue with dexos that an oil manufacturer has to pay X% or X cents to GM for every bottle of oil sold carrying the DEXOS logo?


I'm not sure exactly.. I know it's GM's way of trying to get back money they loose on OC's IMO.. But not sure of exact details. I'm not sure anyone on this site knows the details of the cost.. No matter what any of em says..

This is what I found in an earlier discussion on the subject. Not sure if still valid...

Quote:
Licensees will pay a $1,000 annual fee for each product, plus a royalty of 36 cents on every gallon of dexos they sell.

http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article001531303.cfm?x=b11,0,w


EDIT: Nevermind, it appears after some complaining, GM decided to go to a flat fee model, alas, it's not really clear how much that flat fee would be:
http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article001713657.cfm

 

[buster]

The base oil wars have died down over the years. Most companies are using III/IV/V base oils in varying amounts depending on price point and perfermance level. In terms of value, I just don't see it anymore with Amsoil. Especially now that PU/PP/Valvoline/M1 are so good.

What I do like about Amsoil is their diverse line of products. They have some synthetic fluids you can't find from other makers.

 

[Flareside302]

All that adds up to ALOT of money.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
The Dexos licensing fees are far beyond what the lubricants industry is used to paying to the American Petroleum Institute. Currently, licensees pay a flat fee of $1,250 per company ($250 more for non-API members), and an annual royalty of $0.002 per gallon for volumes exceeding 1 million gallons a year. The fee entitles the qualifying oil to show API’s donut and/or starburst trademarks.


In other words, the oil manf. b****d and moaned about GM's ridiculous fees and royalty structure as compared with the API.

 

[Tiboi]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule

If you don't like Amsoil, fine, don't use it, but don't malign a product with innuendos and without factual data to back it up.


Neither there are factual data to prove that Amsoil SS isn't a group III oil like any other good brand name. Wow, a secret recipe from Amsoil. LOL These days, any cie well equipped can break down the oil and see what is made of.

It is not like I hate Amsoil, it is because I wanted to buy Amsoil Signature series and discover that they are not a lot better than any other products. I just dont buy things because they say something on the label, I do my own research first. Because of my location, it is hard to get Amsoil oil. I will have to order it online, pay shipping and wait. So now I feel confident that the oil from my local shop is as good as Amsoil.

 

[Flareside302]

Not better?!? Have you looked at NOACK? 4 ball wear test etc?

The only oil that comes close IMO is the SN formula of Pennzoil Ultra..

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: Flareside302
Not better?!? Have you looked at NOACK? 4 ball wear test etc?

The only oil that comes close IMO is the SN formula of Pennzoil Ultra..

4 ball again?

 

[Flareside302]

I'm using 4 ball as an example.. And if it's done the same way every time, then it's a controlled variable and is a solid test to prove quality of protection IMO

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Flareside302
And if it's done the same way every time, then it's a controlled variable and is a solid test to prove quality of protection IMO

Not when Head & Shoulders can pass it with flying colors. Based on this test results, would you feel comfortable running H&S in your engine?