acceptable oil consumption

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: ionbeam22
The car isn't supposed to consume any oil, so anything more than say 1 pint per 3000 miles is excessive in a normal well maintained engine. Past 1qt/3000mi, is the starting line for excessive oil consumption.


Agreed. I get really ticked off when mfg's state 1qt p/XXXX miles is acceptable in new vehicles. NO IT ISN'T! Properly built engines do not use oil. My vehicles( kept up to 50-60K when bought new )never use a drop. 5K OCI's w/ synthetic. If they started using any oil( more than a few ounces as another poster mentioned )I would be all over them for a new engine. That is complete crud I don't care who the mfg is.

 

[saaber1]

Originally Posted By: MONKEYMAN
My 99 SL2 Saturn is using 1 quart per 800 miles (sometimes more). It is a common problem with older ones due to design of the rings/pistons.


+1 Have had several of these and oil use can vary wildly by individual car. I have seen 2 of these die due to lack of oil (owner not paying attention to oil consumption). They typically run a long time but owner does need to watch oil level.

 

[mechtech2]

I recall that big block Chevys were OK at 1 qt. 6-800 miles [per the manual].
BIG pistons and relaxed measuring techniques at the factory were the cause.

Today, oil use still depends on the size of the engine, RPM range, and # of cylinders. Factory production techniques are certainly better.

What's too much nowadays? I wouldn't like to use a qt every 3000 miles in anything. For a small engine, 1 qt in 6000 miles.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI

Agreed. I get really ticked off when mfg's state 1qt p/XXXX miles is acceptable in new vehicles. NO IT ISN'T! Properly built engines do not use oil. My vehicles( kept up to 50-60K when bought new )never use a drop. 5K OCI's w/ synthetic. If they started using any oil( more than a few ounces as another poster mentioned )I would be all over them for a new engine. That is complete crud I don't care who the mfg is.


+1

* My '06 Santa Fe has never used oil and it still doesn't at 200K KM (120K miles) with 10K KM (6K mile) OCI's

* My partners '89 Cabriolet doesn't use oil and it has 175K KM (109K miles) and it is 20 years old, and I have converted it over to synthetic and change the oil at 10K KM (6K mile) OCI's

* My dads '94 Caravan which has over 300K KM (180K miles) burns 1/2 quart in 10K KM (6K mile) OCI's on Dino. This van has the nitorious 3.0 Litre Mitsubishi engine that is known for burning oil so the 1/2 quart doesn't really count IMO.

* My Sisters 2000 Elantra which has over 250K KM (150K miles) doesn't burn any oil and it's lucky to see an oil change in 15K KM (9K miles) on the bulk dino.

* My moms '04 Spectra which has over 100K KM (60K miles) doesn't burn any oil with it's 6K KM (3750 Mile) OCI's on Dino.

* My old '94 Tempo before it was totaled by hitting a deer had over 300K KM (180K miles) on it and didn't use a drop of oil.

* My aunts 2000 Civic that she beats the absolute snot out of that doesn't see regular maintenance has almost 200K KM (180K miles) on and has probably seen 10-15K KM (6-9K Mile) on average, OCI's on dino and it doesn't use any oil.

Don't know about the others in this thread but the above mentioned vehicles has gotta speak to the fact that the Manufacturers are just putting that "1 quart in 1,000 miles" line in the owners manuals so they can not pay out on a warranty claim.

 

[doitmyself]

All you guys bragging about zero oil consumption and what SHOULD be is nice, but the rest of us have to deal with reality. We can't just go out and buy a different car.

My '05 Caravan with 4cyl. has always used about 3/4 qt. per 4K OCI (Pennzoil YB it's whole life), in spite of following OEM WOT break in procedures. My previous 2 Caravans with "same" engine had no break in procedure/iffy lubes and used MUCH less oil. Go figure. Thanks BITOG.

SOOOOOOOO, FOR THE REST OF US, WHAT ARE SOME STRATEGIES TO ATTEMPT TO CURB OIL BURNING??? I'm talking of poorly designed engines, not worn out ones.

Would a simple change to a different dino oil make a difference (PZ YB is so highly regarded here)? I already did AutoRx at 75K with no noticeable effect.

 

[7777]

All motors consume oil,thats a fact ! Some just more than others .

If concerned, do a compression test,also check your plugs,I would start there.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
All you guys bragging about zero oil consumption and what SHOULD be is nice, but the rest of us have to deal with reality. We can't just go out and buy a different car.

My '05 Caravan with 4cyl. has always used about 3/4 qt. per 4K OCI (Pennzoil YB it's whole life), in spite of following OEM WOT break in procedures. My previous 2 Caravans with "same" engine had no break in procedure/iffy lubes and used MUCH less oil. Go figure. Thanks BITOG.

SOOOOOOOO, FOR THE REST OF US, WHAT ARE SOME STRATEGIES TO ATTEMPT TO CURB OIL BURNING??? I'm talking of poorly designed engines, not worn out ones.

Would a simple change to a different dino oil make a difference (PZ YB is so highly regarded here)? I already did AutoRx at 75K with no noticeable effect.


Um... Not bragging... Just saying that MFG's need to get their $!#@ together and stop the nonsense. If they had to pay out every time a new engine was using oil then they would build them right the first time. They get away with this because of the "1 quart / thousand miles" line in the owners manual which should no longer be valid with today's precision machining technology.

We can put a man on the moon but can't build a car that keeps its fluids in the right places? hmmmm....

 

[Jim Allen]

Strategies, huh?

Well, number one... don't top off until it needs a full quart. I've found that a car that burns oil will often burn off that first half quart (or so, relative to actual sump capacity) rapidly, then taper off. Be a little more careful with that if your car has a very low sump capacity, but I believe the engine designer wouldn't have established an "add" mark without knowing the engine will be fine at or near that level. There are exceptions. I have used this philosophy successfully many times with many of my old tires engines.

Try different oils. Sometimes going up a viscosity grade might help. Sometimes going down a grade helps too. There has been some discussion here about either single grade or oils with the least amount of VIIs being less volatile and more immune to burning. Use a multigrade oil with the narrowest spread between the summer and winter grades (5W20 vs 10W40) may be a better candidate for an oil burner because the are less VIIs. Ditto for a synthetic. Also an oil with a high flash point can sometimes be a better candidate than one with a low one. There is some correlation with NOACK specs and oil burning but I don't understand it well enough to explain it. Plus, the NOACK number can be hard to find sometimes.

Fuel dilution can be a cause of oil burning. An engine running rich, a short hopper, too much idling in cold weather before the engine is in closed loop, can all contribute to fuel dilution. Diluted oil will end up with a lower flash point.

Finally, it may come down to a mechanical issue. Maybe it's close enough for the mfr to call it "normal" but we all know it may not be. It's usually more expensive to chase that goose than it is to exercise diligence and add oil as needed.

 

[Button]

doitmyself,

I'm trying a thicker oil to curb consumption. Hopefully, it will reduce/eliminate the consumption wo/ sacrificing MPGs too much.

Regards,
~Button

 

[440Magnum]

I can't believe I'm reading statements to the effect that ZERO oil consumption is "right" or even possible.

EVERY piston engine consumes a measurable quantity of oil. Every single one. Its impossible NOT to do so and have the compression rings survive. True, many engines consume amazingly little (I never can get over the fact that my 130k mile Jeep 4.0 uses less than 1/8 the difference between "full" and "add" on the dipstick over a 6000 mile OCI) but there is always finite, measurable consumption.

"Acceptable" oil consumption is highly variable, too.
Bigger bore engines burn more oil than small-bore engines. Bigger *displacement* engines usually burn more than smaller. V8s tend to burn more than I4s. Many engine design features geared for high fuel efficiency can increase oil consumption (low-tension rings, short-skirt pistons, etc.) Brand new engines and worn-out engines both burn more oil than engines in happy mid-life. Some engines consume quite a lot more oil mist through their PCV system than others, a characteristic totally unrelated to consumption past rings and valve guides. some engines burn noticeably more oil near the "full" level, than they do as the oil level drops toward the "add" mark, and keeping engines like that totally full is just a waste of oil.

Here's one I wouldn't have believed if I hadn't seen it, reliably repeated, myself: Most engines tend to burn thinner oil faster than thicker oil but some engines burn *far* more thick oil than they do thin oil. I assume this is because the rings do a good job of scraping the thin oil off the cylinder walls but they "lose control" of the oil film with very thick oil.

The only way I could define "acceptable" is a) not way out of line with other engines of the same type, b) No more than twice the oil consumption rate the engine showed at between 15,000 and 30,000 miles, and c) absolutely never more than a quart per 1000 miles (the Mitsubishi 3.0 clause...)

 

[Spykem4e]

My car burns or use oil. It never puffed blue from the exhaust pipe on cold startup, WOT or whatever.

With M1 10w30, my car consume 1 qt per 1000kms.

With PP 5w30, my car consume 1 qt per 4000kms.

With M1 5w30, my car consume 1 qt per 6000kms.

All number are approx +- 500kms. But still, go figure!

Its the first car that I own that use oil. In the beginning I didn't like it and I couldn't sleep at night(figure of speech). 50k miles later, I'm use to it. One big mistake from my engine is that there is no oil cooler. I'm trying to find an oil that can handle very hot temp since I dont have an oil cooler.

Anyways, the way I think how engine use oil is from seals that need to be lubricated all time so it means oil has to be drank from that. Also, when pistons are going down, oil is left in the cylinder so it must be burned a bit, no?

I dont know a lot about engine so its my opinion..

 

[Colt45ws]

I think the synthetics you are using will handle that Cadillac just fine even without a cooler. Yes, when the piston goes down some oil is left on the wall. The amount has to be controlled with alot of precision. Too little and the rings sieze up. Too much and it puffs smoke. I can not remember the numbers but it was something like if it burned a drop of oil for every combustion event the oil consumption would be 1 qt per km or something like that. We are really talking about molecules of oil left on the wall.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: Jdblya


The accepted rate of oil consumption for engines used in the vehicles referenced is 0.946 liter (1 qt) in 3200 km (2000 mi).Models:
1998-2009 GM Passenger Cars and Gasoline Powered Light Duty Trucks Under 8500 LB GVW (Including Saturn)

2003-2009 HUMMER H2
2006-2009 HUMMER H3
2005-2009 Saab 9-7X

Supercede:

This bulletin is being revised to update model years. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 01-06-01-011D (Section 06 - Engine/Propulsion System).

All engines require oil to lubricate and protect the load bearing and internal moving parts from wear including cylinder walls, pistons and piston rings. When a piston moves down its cylinder, a thin film of oil is left on the cylinder wall. During the power stroke, part of this oil layer is consumed in the combustion process. As a result, varying rates of oil consumption are accepted as normal in all engines.

Oil Consumption

The accepted rate of oil consumption for engines used in the vehicles referenced is 0.946 liter (1 qt) in 3200 km (2000 mi).


Another reason I'll never buy a GM vehicle again...unless your engine has a major failure under warranty...they are NOT fixing it. After spending almost $80,000 on 2 trucks with the famous piston slap...and having them refuse to repair them in warranty...I'm done.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I can't believe I'm reading statements to the effect that ZERO oil consumption is "right" or even possible.

EVERY piston engine consumes a measurable quantity of oil. Every single one. Its impossible NOT to do so and have the compression rings survive. True, many engines consume amazingly little (I never can get over the fact that my 130k mile Jeep 4.0 uses less than 1/8 the difference between "full" and "add" on the dipstick over a 6000 mile OCI) but there is always finite, measurable consumption.

"Acceptable" oil consumption is highly variable, too.
Bigger bore engines burn more oil than small-bore engines. Bigger *displacement* engines usually burn more than smaller. V8s tend to burn more than I4s. Many engine design features geared for high fuel efficiency can increase oil consumption (low-tension rings, short-skirt pistons, etc.) Brand new engines and worn-out engines both burn more oil than engines in happy mid-life. Some engines consume quite a lot more oil mist through their PCV system than others, a characteristic totally unrelated to consumption past rings and valve guides. some engines burn noticeably more oil near the "full" level, than they do as the oil level drops toward the "add" mark, and keeping engines like that totally full is just a waste of oil.

Here's one I wouldn't have believed if I hadn't seen it, reliably repeated, myself: Most engines tend to burn thinner oil faster than thicker oil but some engines burn *far* more thick oil than they do thin oil. I assume this is because the rings do a good job of scraping the thin oil off the cylinder walls but they "lose control" of the oil film with very thick oil.

The only way I could define "acceptable" is a) not way out of line with other engines of the same type, b) No more than twice the oil consumption rate the engine showed at between 15,000 and 30,000 miles, and c) absolutely never more than a quart per 1000 miles (the Mitsubishi 3.0 clause...)


Sorry but never had a vehicle I bought new that used a drop of oil( noticeable if that makes you feel better )between OC's. 5K OC's with synthetic and 3K with Dino( way back for me )max mileage would be approx 60K. I would not accept an engine using more than an ounce or two of oil in a new vehicle on 3-5K OCI's.

My current vehicle( 08 Ram 1500 w/ 5.7L )is at 9300 miles. Oil was last changed at 4800. Oil level on dipstick is where it has been since the OC day 1.

 

[mechtech2]

doitmyself - You are changing the original poster's question/intention.

What is acceptable and normal vs. how to fix an oil burner.

ARx your engine and use thicker oil.

 

[7777]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I can't believe I'm reading statements to the effect that ZERO oil consumption is "right" or even possible.

EVERY piston engine consumes a measurable quantity of oil. Every single one. Its impossible NOT to do so and have the compression rings survive. True, many engines consume amazingly little (I never can get over the fact that my 130k mile Jeep 4.0 uses less than 1/8 the difference between "full" and "add" on the dipstick over a 6000 mile OCI) but there is always finite, measurable consumption.

"Acceptable" oil consumption is highly variable, too.
Bigger bore engines burn more oil than small-bore engines. Bigger *displacement* engines usually burn more than smaller. V8s tend to burn more than I4s. Many engine design features geared for high fuel efficiency can increase oil consumption (low-tension rings, short-skirt pistons, etc.) Brand new engines and worn-out engines both burn more oil than engines in happy mid-life. Some engines consume quite a lot more oil mist through their PCV system than others, a characteristic totally unrelated to consumption past rings and valve guides. some engines burn noticeably more oil near the "full" level, than they do as the oil level drops toward the "add" mark, and keeping engines like that totally full is just a waste of oil.

Here's one I wouldn't have believed if I hadn't seen it, reliably repeated, myself: Most engines tend to burn thinner oil faster than thicker oil but some engines burn *far* more thick oil than they do thin oil. I assume this is because the rings do a good job of scraping the thin oil off the cylinder walls but they "lose control" of the oil film with very thick oil.

The only way I could define "acceptable" is a) not way out of line with other engines of the same type, b) No more than twice the oil consumption rate the engine showed at between 15,000 and 30,000 miles, and c) absolutely never more than a quart per 1000 miles (the Mitsubishi 3.0 clause...)


+1

 

[StevieC]

Well I feel sorry for all of you that have the consumption issue. I wouldn't stand for it nor try to make it seem "acceptable" to justify a problem you can't admit to.

I know it is hard to admit fault with something you own because it is detrimental to you but the truth is no car should burn/consume more than a few OZ/ML's of oil between changes in a new or relatively new engine (less than 125K miles).

To me, at most, a few ML's or Ounces of oil between changes is acceptable. If it were anymore the engine better have a pile of miles on it or I would be back at the dealership requesting a new engine and crying foul at whatever cost it took to prove my case.

Depending on how the dealership/brand handled my situation I would then decide on whether to "reward" that brand with another purchase in future.

"1 Quart in 1,000 miles" is nonsense and a way for Manufacturers to get out of paying out on a poor engine design, poor workmanship and/or manufacturing defect. PLAIN AND SIMPLE!

You are the customer and you get to demand what you want for your money and to me 1/1000 is not acceptable nor have I ever had this problem with an engine with less than 125K miles on it. EVEN THE 3.0 Mitsubishi!

The only exception would be the Rotary engine which I would then accept the 1/1000 argument because of its design but only after 50K miles of initial use.

These big bad manufacturers/brand aren't going to tell me how it is... I vote with my wallet and if they want my vote they will cater to my needs/wants. PERIOD!

 

[Bamaro]

Nissan told me 1QT/1500 miles was within specifications for my QR25DE engine.

 

[CATERHAM]

Any modern engine that consumed a noticeable amount of oil between OCI's that was still within warranty I would be concerned about and investigate.

In a used engine outside of warranty, if it still runs well with good power, doesn't foul platinum extended tip plugs and I can still see out the rearview mirror, then that's 'good enough' in my book.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
... and I can still see out the rearview mirror, then that's 'good enough' in my book.


Sounds like my old Caravan with the Mitsu in it at 400K KM...