If you were to buy a new combat pistol in either .40 or .45 which would you prefer? Which model in which caliber?
I like the H&K USP in .45 myself, but i don't own one.
I like the H&K USP in .45 myself, but i don't own one.
.40 or .45?
- Thread starter tom slick
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Anything made by Glock.They have an outstanding selection from full size down to small concealable models.Personally I'm not a big fan of the .40 even though I carry one everyday. It's only .045 inches larger than the 9MM and of course .05 smaller than the .45. A 9MM is a lot more controllable and easier on the weapon if shot a lot.Our issue weapon is the Beretta 96, which is basically the 92 chambered for the .40. We have experienced some slides cracking with the .40, something that never happened with the 9MM's.We are in the process of changing over to the Glocks this year.I am a fan of the 9MM. With good shot placement it will get the job done.If you like the bigger round go with the .45. Any of the .45's based on the original 1911 model should be good. Springdield makes a very good version of the 1911 with all the bells and whistles you can afford.
The .40 is a great round that hits as hard as the .45 and is cheaper! It is a high pressure round so some hand guns did have trouble with the .40. All manufactures have had time to work out the bugs and just about every .40 is 100% safe.
If you want a .40 look at the SIG 229. It was one of the 1st hand guns spicificly designed for the .40 and is probibly the stronget .40 cal hand gun made and is a truly reliable gun and it is built with total quality in mind. Lots of gun experts will agree the Sig is a better gun then the HK and Glock in almost every aspect.
If you want a .40 look at the SIG 229. It was one of the 1st hand guns spicificly designed for the .40 and is probibly the stronget .40 cal hand gun made and is a truly reliable gun and it is built with total quality in mind. Lots of gun experts will agree the Sig is a better gun then the HK and Glock in almost every aspect.
The .40 is a great round that hits as hard as the .45 and is cheaper! It is a high pressure round so some hand guns did have trouble with the .40. All manufactures have had time to work out the bugs and just about every .40 is 100% safe.
If you want a .40 look at the SIG 229. It was one of the 1st hand guns spicificly designed for the .40 and is probibly the stronget .40 cal hand gun made and is a truly reliable gun and it is built with total quality in mind. Lots of gun experts will agree the Sig is a better gun then the HK and Glock in almost every aspect.
If you want a .40 look at the SIG 229. It was one of the 1st hand guns spicificly designed for the .40 and is probibly the stronget .40 cal hand gun made and is a truly reliable gun and it is built with total quality in mind. Lots of gun experts will agree the Sig is a better gun then the HK and Glock in almost every aspect.
The USP .40 is a nice gun, though HK's are horribly overpriced. I like Sigs and CZ's, especially the Sig Pro (best gun you'll ever get for under $400). The most accurate pistol I've shot to date is a CZ-97b .45, it's a "race gun" at a bargain price. Springfield's XD series is not bad for the money, either. Still, the Sig Pro in .40 would be my choice for a carry gun. Plus, a barrel swap gives you a .357Sig firearm as well!
In the past I came across some information in a gun magazine to tthe effect that according to testing a .40 cal round has about the same effectiveness as a .45. And in the SIG 226 you can have 12 rounds in a high capacity magazine.
In a conversation I had very recently with a guy at a gun shop he told me that the military is going back to the .45 and also .40 cal guns. According to this guy SIGs are somewhat hard to find right now because the military has some major contracts in. He said that some units in the military are already using the 1911 type .45 and apparently other units will be using the .40. If this is true then I am all for it. I never believed in 9 mm handguns for the military.
The 1911 .45 has been around forever (plus the same round is used in many other makes of handgun) and the 1911 .45 is probably one of the very best handguns ever made. It is combat tested in several wars. The .40 can carry more rounds then a usual .45 however.
In a conversation I had very recently with a guy at a gun shop he told me that the military is going back to the .45 and also .40 cal guns. According to this guy SIGs are somewhat hard to find right now because the military has some major contracts in. He said that some units in the military are already using the 1911 type .45 and apparently other units will be using the .40. If this is true then I am all for it. I never believed in 9 mm handguns for the military.
The 1911 .45 has been around forever (plus the same round is used in many other makes of handgun) and the 1911 .45 is probably one of the very best handguns ever made. It is combat tested in several wars. The .40 can carry more rounds then a usual .45 however.
I think the main benefit of a 9mm round is that it is a standard NATO round and is widely used, so they'll be easy to find if a soldier is in a tough situation overseas and needs to get ammunition from a local source.
If you choose something like the SIG or the HK, you'll have to really practice on the DA/SA conversion thing.
On these "double action" semi-autos, the first shot is a long, revolver-like trigger pull, and each subsequent shot is a shorter stroke; you actually have a different trigger position. This has proven to be difficult for most folks to master--even after a considerable amount of practice. The tendency remains to pull the first shot low--sometimes WAY low, as you draw back that trigger.
I don't like this type of action for this reason.
I believe there are really only two semi-auto designs worth considering: The Colt 1911A1 in .45 ACP, and the Glock design. The Glock pistol will become the 1911 of the 21st century; it'll change little if at all as it's pretty much "perfection."
I own two 1911's and one Glock. With the correct 9mm ammo, you're going to have plenty of stopping power--so don't shy away from a good deal on a 9. Federal's 115 grain Hydra-Shoks, or my preferred, the Corbon 115 grain load, is quite successful on the streets in actual shootings.
This all said, my "house guns" are revolvers. I never have to worry about magazine springs being compressed for so long they don't function, or whether "there's one in the chamber or not." Wheel guns are quite comforting as far as reliability, too.
Dan
On these "double action" semi-autos, the first shot is a long, revolver-like trigger pull, and each subsequent shot is a shorter stroke; you actually have a different trigger position. This has proven to be difficult for most folks to master--even after a considerable amount of practice. The tendency remains to pull the first shot low--sometimes WAY low, as you draw back that trigger.
I don't like this type of action for this reason.
I believe there are really only two semi-auto designs worth considering: The Colt 1911A1 in .45 ACP, and the Glock design. The Glock pistol will become the 1911 of the 21st century; it'll change little if at all as it's pretty much "perfection."
I own two 1911's and one Glock. With the correct 9mm ammo, you're going to have plenty of stopping power--so don't shy away from a good deal on a 9. Federal's 115 grain Hydra-Shoks, or my preferred, the Corbon 115 grain load, is quite successful on the streets in actual shootings.
This all said, my "house guns" are revolvers. I never have to worry about magazine springs being compressed for so long they don't function, or whether "there's one in the chamber or not." Wheel guns are quite comforting as far as reliability, too.
Dan
I carry a 9mm and wish that it was .45acp... I have not really used a .40 S&W much at all but I have read a lot. So I really cannot comment on it. Seems to me to be a compromise round in some respects. That may have been true initially to some degree but may no longer hold true.
The 9mm is very round-dependent. Load the thing up with a +P+ (all steel frame) non-147gr. round that shoots straight and it is very good sidearm. I am confined to standard-load 147gr. and am less than thrilled. I would take a .40 any day over a 147gr nine. That which concerns me about 9mm is the possibility of a bullet failure where the design doesn't perform due to clothing, glass-strike, etc. If the round is gonna perform like ball then I want the biggest, heaviest ball possible.
For those constrained to the use of ball ammunition, 230gr .45acp should speak for itself!
John.
The 9mm is very round-dependent. Load the thing up with a +P+ (all steel frame) non-147gr. round that shoots straight and it is very good sidearm. I am confined to standard-load 147gr. and am less than thrilled. I would take a .40 any day over a 147gr nine. That which concerns me about 9mm is the possibility of a bullet failure where the design doesn't perform due to clothing, glass-strike, etc. If the round is gonna perform like ball then I want the biggest, heaviest ball possible.
For those constrained to the use of ball ammunition, 230gr .45acp should speak for itself!
John.
Originally posted by fuel tanker man
"This all said, my "house guns" are revolvers. I never have to worry about magazine springs being compressed for so long they don't function, or whether "there's one in the chamber or not." Wheel guns are quite comforting as far as reliability, too."
I couldn't agree more.The .40 just doesn't provide any real advantage that I can see over the 9MM or the .45. Holds a few more than the .45 but less than the 9MM. A .40 caliber 180 grain at 980 fps doesn't generate that much more energy than a 9MM 147 grain at 980 fps. A difference in weight of 37 grains is less than a .22 long rifle round weighs.The difference in bullet diameter of .045 inches is almost insignificant. But it's like everything else, if you feel comfortable with the .40 then by all means carry it, just remember stopping power with any handgun depends more on proper shot placement than on anything else.
"This all said, my "house guns" are revolvers. I never have to worry about magazine springs being compressed for so long they don't function, or whether "there's one in the chamber or not." Wheel guns are quite comforting as far as reliability, too."
I couldn't agree more.The .40 just doesn't provide any real advantage that I can see over the 9MM or the .45. Holds a few more than the .45 but less than the 9MM. A .40 caliber 180 grain at 980 fps doesn't generate that much more energy than a 9MM 147 grain at 980 fps. A difference in weight of 37 grains is less than a .22 long rifle round weighs.The difference in bullet diameter of .045 inches is almost insignificant. But it's like everything else, if you feel comfortable with the .40 then by all means carry it, just remember stopping power with any handgun depends more on proper shot placement than on anything else.
Shot placement is what counts. If you can not put a round where it will damage vital organs. I've seen it too many times from the braggers and bigmouths about how good they can shoot there .45 caliber or whatever. They get to the range and can't hit a thing. Proper instruction and practice, practice, practice is what it takes.
I'm no expert but, I have seen the end results in the field and on the job when it comes to what works and what does not. Here again, it is shot placement. I have seen .45 autos hit center mass and not kill, it is not the wonder round everyone thinks it is. A .45 is a relatively slow round in comparison to alot of other rounds. Yes, it is big but, it is slow. Kinetic energy is what kills. Go for a .357 Magnum, 10mm Auto, a .40 is good with the right round.
Don't feel at a disadvantage with a .357 magnum revolver. Yes, typically only six rounds but, most guns battles are over in a few seconds. So you won't be running through 15 to 18 rounds in that time. We all have seen the videos of police gun battles on t.v., the cops with their autos jerking off rounds as fast as they can pull the trigger = Liability! If you can find videos from the past of cops with revolvers, look at those shootings. You don't see round after round being fired. Those old cops knew how many rounds they had to deal with. New cops are too many times are victims of t.v. shows showing actor cops shooting the countryside up with their autos.
Always used a revolver on duty and it never failed me. I've owned autos and they have jammed on me time after time.
I'm no expert but, I have seen the end results in the field and on the job when it comes to what works and what does not. Here again, it is shot placement. I have seen .45 autos hit center mass and not kill, it is not the wonder round everyone thinks it is. A .45 is a relatively slow round in comparison to alot of other rounds. Yes, it is big but, it is slow. Kinetic energy is what kills. Go for a .357 Magnum, 10mm Auto, a .40 is good with the right round.
Don't feel at a disadvantage with a .357 magnum revolver. Yes, typically only six rounds but, most guns battles are over in a few seconds. So you won't be running through 15 to 18 rounds in that time. We all have seen the videos of police gun battles on t.v., the cops with their autos jerking off rounds as fast as they can pull the trigger = Liability! If you can find videos from the past of cops with revolvers, look at those shootings. You don't see round after round being fired. Those old cops knew how many rounds they had to deal with. New cops are too many times are victims of t.v. shows showing actor cops shooting the countryside up with their autos.
Always used a revolver on duty and it never failed me. I've owned autos and they have jammed on me time after time.
Yes, shot placement is what counts. A person could be slightly wounded with a .44 Mag round and killed instantly by a .22 Long Rifle round. Actually, the .22 Long Rifle is a very dangerous round.
The military has to use full metal jackets so I really think the military would be better off with hanguns like the .45 or the .40. Handguns are a secondary weapon for a soldier of course but if you are a pilot shot down in enemy territory you are going to need a handgun that can get the job done. You probably will not have an M-16 if you are a fighter pilot.
You can't tell what is going to happen in an actual gun fight. I heard of a police officer who was an expert shot with a handgun. He became involved in a gun battle with a criminal, emptied an entire magazine at point blank range, and missed with every round.
Police officers are trained to put two rounds center of mass and then shoot at the head if the criminal has body armor. It does not matter if you have a revolver or a semi-auto-you are supposed to be able to stop somebody with the fewest amount of rounds required-not spray half a hundred rounds all over the area. So revolvers can be as good for police officers as semi-autos.
But any handgun is not as good in a close range battle as a shotgun.
The military has to use full metal jackets so I really think the military would be better off with hanguns like the .45 or the .40. Handguns are a secondary weapon for a soldier of course but if you are a pilot shot down in enemy territory you are going to need a handgun that can get the job done. You probably will not have an M-16 if you are a fighter pilot.
You can't tell what is going to happen in an actual gun fight. I heard of a police officer who was an expert shot with a handgun. He became involved in a gun battle with a criminal, emptied an entire magazine at point blank range, and missed with every round.
Police officers are trained to put two rounds center of mass and then shoot at the head if the criminal has body armor. It does not matter if you have a revolver or a semi-auto-you are supposed to be able to stop somebody with the fewest amount of rounds required-not spray half a hundred rounds all over the area. So revolvers can be as good for police officers as semi-autos.
But any handgun is not as good in a close range battle as a shotgun.
I herd about the DOD and the Sig contract. Some thing is sure going on. I have been hearing that sp. forces are useing a .45+P round in a Sig.
I would love it if the forces went back to a .45 , a 1911 .45
and lose the M9.
I bet the air force will be the last to give up the 9mm, I bet to many people like it be cause "it dosen't kick to hard".
I know I don't like the 9mm.
I would trade the 9 for the .45 any day,
I would love it if the forces went back to a .45 , a 1911 .45
I bet the air force will be the last to give up the 9mm, I bet to many people like it be cause "it dosen't kick to hard".
I know I don't like the 9mm.
I would trade the 9 for the .45 any day,
Rob,
Good post--lots of common sense there.
Yeah, the .357 Magnum 125 grain JHP--the old Federal load in particular--has the all time record for one shot stops. Amazingly enough, it's in the high 90th percentile. Practically every other cartridge is low 90's at best.
True, these one shot stop stats aren't necessarily the final word on what's going to happen, but the stats (compiled by retired Detroit police officer Evan Marshall and Deputy Ed Sanow) are the closest thing we have to what will "probably happen." (sort of like Used Oil Analyses if you think about it!)
And in that regard, the .357 Magnum, with lighter, faster jacketed hollow points remains the round to beat. Even the 44 Magnum doesn't do as well--because the 44's bullets are designed for better penetration on game, and they do not readily expand, so they tend to over-penetrate and exit, dumping most of their energy somewhere beyond the perp. Winchester did/does produce a Silvertip loading for the 44 Magnum, designed with personal defense in mind, but it still takes a back seat to the .357/125 JHP's numbers.
Dan
[ March 12, 2005, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: fuel tanker man ]
Good post--lots of common sense there.
Yeah, the .357 Magnum 125 grain JHP--the old Federal load in particular--has the all time record for one shot stops. Amazingly enough, it's in the high 90th percentile. Practically every other cartridge is low 90's at best.
True, these one shot stop stats aren't necessarily the final word on what's going to happen, but the stats (compiled by retired Detroit police officer Evan Marshall and Deputy Ed Sanow) are the closest thing we have to what will "probably happen." (sort of like Used Oil Analyses if you think about it!)
Dan
[ March 12, 2005, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: fuel tanker man ]
While I accept the fact that a semi-automatic sidearm might save a policeman's life in a reloading scenario (& I know of examples of this), I would be awfully tempted to give up my issued 9mm DAO stainless Smith (5946) sidearm for my own 4" Model 19 with a tried & true 125gr SJHPWC... Perhaps I would retrofit some tritium sights as those make sense.
I have always preferred wheel guns. That was what I was initially trained with. I really enjoy shooting them.
John.
I have always preferred wheel guns. That was what I was initially trained with. I really enjoy shooting them.
John.
I have had a CCW permit for seven years now. Carried a HK USP Compact in .40 S & W up until a year and a half ago...I also have a full sized USP .40 just cuz i like HK...
Both are great guns. They go bang every time and with the expiration of the AWB 12 round magazines are available for the compact.
I rediscovered my 1911's, have three and hadnt shot them in quite a while. I found that my group sizes at 7, 15, and 25 yards are roughly 1/2-3/4 the size of my HK's....nothing fits my hand like a 1911 and the transition of DA to SA probably affects that a little on the second shot.
So for the last 1 1/2 years i have carried a 1911 in .45 cocked and locked. I think John M. Browning got it right with this design...all the others are just answers to questions that havent been asked...LOL
The 9mm/40/45 has sparked debate for decades! IMHO the 9mm is a bit light...people like the .40, it offers more velocity than the 45 with a bullet that causes a bigger hole than the 9mm. Get what you shoot best and like, but if it were me, i would go .45! Yes, you are giving up a few rounds of capacity, but honestly, are you planning on taking on a squad of bad guys? In all honesty if i can't handle the situation with 8 rounds of .45 (7+1), , 10, 20, or even a box of 50 probably isnt going to save me!
"2 to the chest, 1 to the head, ensures they are dead!"...
Just IMHO
darrell
sin city
Both are great guns. They go bang every time and with the expiration of the AWB 12 round magazines are available for the compact.
I rediscovered my 1911's, have three and hadnt shot them in quite a while. I found that my group sizes at 7, 15, and 25 yards are roughly 1/2-3/4 the size of my HK's....nothing fits my hand like a 1911 and the transition of DA to SA probably affects that a little on the second shot.
So for the last 1 1/2 years i have carried a 1911 in .45 cocked and locked. I think John M. Browning got it right with this design...all the others are just answers to questions that havent been asked...LOL
The 9mm/40/45 has sparked debate for decades! IMHO the 9mm is a bit light...people like the .40, it offers more velocity than the 45 with a bullet that causes a bigger hole than the 9mm. Get what you shoot best and like, but if it were me, i would go .45! Yes, you are giving up a few rounds of capacity, but honestly, are you planning on taking on a squad of bad guys? In all honesty if i can't handle the situation with 8 rounds of .45 (7+1), , 10, 20, or even a box of 50 probably isnt going to save me!
"2 to the chest, 1 to the head, ensures they are dead!"...
Just IMHO
darrell
sin city
I like revolvers as they usually provide better accuracy for the price than semi-autos, and from what I've seen among civilians, who are free to use whatever weapon ammo they wish, noticed that revolvers were also more reliable on the bullseye and practical range. You can load a revolver with a mix of wax rounds, target wadcutters, and full magnum loads and it'll shoot just fine regardless of how you hold it. Some of the semi-autos that had a reputation for being very reliable would sometimes misfire if you didn't 'hold it right'. Semiauto malfunctions on the range had many descriptions and many owners were familiar with them. I'll agree that a revolver won't work well when dropped in mud and then sand, etc., but people confuse standard issue weapons and ammo with 'all semi-autos are inherently more reliable'.
Just make sure that you put a lot of rounds thru whatever you want to rely on.
Just make sure that you put a lot of rounds thru whatever you want to rely on.
Originally posted by LVHospiceRN:
"The 9mm/40/45 has sparked debate for decades!"
And it will for decades to come.
"The 9mm/40/45 has sparked debate for decades!"
And it will for decades to come.
If there are any indoor ranges in your area that rent pistols may give you an idea on what feels best for you. My best friend owns a gun shop and alot of guns are traded in because the owners buy a gun and find out they don't like it.
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