I have cleaned mine on my 21 hrv when I did a cvt fluid change at 30000 miles.. Easy to do..It is a rubber vent that you pull off and clean out if needed.. Mine was not clogged at all..Honda makes it easy to change the cvt fluid....
2024 Civic w/NA 2.0 - Honda recommends 0w-20 - Suggestions and thoughts?
- Thread starter NattyBoh
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Maybe there are just less oils available where I am. And not every sale shows up at my local AAP. They only have 2-3 employees anyway. However, for me at NAPA, this oil goes on sale every other month or something like that for $6.99. I use it in one of my friends' Honda Fit (2008,1.5NA) in the winter, just because I can buy it at the same time as Mobil 1 FS X2 5W-50 for my Subaru.
Not disagreeing, but curious on where this knowledge comes from? I've never heard of this break-in oil practice by any major OEM.Honda actually does use a special break-in oil that's not available outside the factory.
non-turbo Hondas aren't picky on oil. 0w20 is perfectly fine, but sometimes it's out-of-stock or something, or if you can get a good deal on something else, then there is nothing wrong with that
It's common for manufacturers to use special oils that have enhanced *preservative* functions for new engines that might be inactive for a long period of time before placed in service, but I'm not familiar with any OEM shipping an engine with break-in oil.
As you likely know, GM ships several models with M1 as factory fill and Cummins ships every diesel engine made in the USA with Valvoline Premium Blue (15w-40). Neither are special break-in oils and those engines are dyno-run-in as part of the production process.
And rather comically I'm sure the Corvette owners manual advises to be drive gently to "break-in" while shipping the vehicle with M1 as factory fill.
It has been discussed a lot on here, and there is also this page (go to the last question). Honda even says not to do your first oil change early.
As you likely know, GM ships several models with M1 as factory fill and Cummins ships every diesel engine made in the USA with Valvoline Premium Blue (15w-40). Neither are special break-in oils and those engines are dyno-run-in as part of the production process.
And rather comically I'm sure the Corvette owners manual advises to be drive gently to "break-in" while shipping the vehicle with M1 as factory fill.
Most owners manuals say to drive gently for the first 500-1000 miles or so, not unique to the Corvette.
Brand new video, with actual first short OCI UOA.
Honda got magic oil from factory of course
Excellent video. LSJ is a great resource and his idea of pouring a clean quart in for flush is brilliant and I will be adopting it immediately after coping with the SMH factor that I didn't already think of it.
The first thing I did when I bought my 02 Ram with the Cummins was change the oil with Rotella at 400 miles. Engines have not just wear particles in them, but residual casting sand and all manner of stuff that kind escape the processes that clean parts prior to engine assembly.
Honda using die cast blocks, so by nature are much, much cleaner from the factory floor. Any engine with sand castings that are oil-wetted should absolutely get the first oil change done ASAP.
Well, to be clear that is a Honda DEALER.
And what they are saying is that break-in lubes have been applied to some parts of the engine:
Q: My Honda is equipped with Break-in Oil, should I change it early?
A: No. To ensure the proper engine break-in, the factory-fill oil needs to remain in the engine until your first maintenance interval. The only difference between the factory fill oil and the Honda replacement oil is the Molybdenum lubricant that is applied to specific engine components.
In other words, they use an MoS2 assembly lube on some components when they build the engine. Not surprising with all those sliding interfaces in the valvetrain. Draining the factory oil will switch you over to an oil with less moly in it.My own experience (unfiltered by corporate liability and legal departments and warranty considerations) is that by 500 miles, all of the benefit of the moly has been realized and there's no value in retaining the extra moly in the engine and the wear particles associated with early engine life.
If one is terribly concerned with a "break in oil" then just change the oil early and use a higher-moly oil for that early OCI. Seems pretty simple to solve. There's nothing magical about factory Honda oil.
If you are within striking distance of WalMart, or a keyboard (Amazon), even in Massachussets, there are exactly one gazillion synthetic oil choices in 0W20, perfect for your friend's Fit. That Mobil 1 ESP oil is not offering any benefit for this cars (imo) over, say, Quaker State Full Syn 0W20 @ $22.97 for a five quart jug. I think that the word is out that chain car parts stores have largely stopped competing on price on oil. The latest ploy is to combine a decent jug of oil with a middling filter, and get you out the door for, say, $38-40. I know that the world of Subarus has its own oil rules and mythology, but not sure what brought you to that particular oil.
Ahh this is the green oil I’ve seen before. Well the OCI is what, 7500-10000 mi using the OLM on these cars? Maybe the added cost of the green oil would be better reflected since the OLM pushes the oil so far? Make sense?
So what do you recommend for a higher moly oil? There doesn’t seem to be much info about these oils here
I can't recommend a particular oil for you. What I personally would do (and have done) is change the factory oil at a couple hundred miles and accept the lack of moly. I'd use the same oil at 500 miles as I'd use at 5000 miles and at 50,000 miles.
By analogy, consider the old fashioned cam lube paste you used to wipe all over a flat tappet camshaft to assure you don't "wipe a lobe" during break-in. And that was back when oils often had moly in them already. The existing moly level was insufficient, or thought to be-- hence the need for special break in paste lube on the cam.
But how long does that paste lube last on the camshaft? Seconds to perhaps a minute. Cam makers will often furnish instructions saying to use their special moly lube, then run the engine at higher RPM for 20 minutes and then the "break in" is complete. Within that 20minutes, the moly is rapidly washed into the rest of the oil, the effective moly content at the cam lobe is orders of magnitude less, and then the engine lives happily ever after.
The point of this analogy is that break-in follows an exponential decay curve. The engine breaks in VERY fast, and then slow, then slower still. After 5 gallons of fuel burned, most (~60%) break in is done. After 50 gallons of fuel burned, perhaps 85% is done. That last 15% might take 500 gallons more fuel burn.
I can tell you that when we run test cell engines on "endurance testing" the break in takes TWENTY MINUTES. The oil is the serviced, then the engine is run to an abuse condition per the test protocol. Now, these are diesel engines, but these are ring packs and bearings designed to go a million miles with steel pistons. These are not soft and easily broken in parts, yet they are considered run-in after 20 minutes on house Valvoline dino oil (15w-40 PB). The key here though is that this is 20 minutes at full load-- what many people would call "lugging" in a gasoline engine. It's hard to simulate this kind of load in any actual vehicle as you are limited by the constraints of speed limits and public spaces. But some good hard full throttle runs can get close enough.
It's true that a new engine will continue to go several thousand miles before the wear metals stabilize. But the period of time at which the running surfaces are rough enough to potentially seize parts is very short-- a minute or two at most.
Honda frankly doesn't care if you get 200k or 400k miles out of there engine. Rather, if there's is even a 1% chance that the "break in oil" prevents and early life failure when some knucklehead takes a brand new engine to redline immediately after starting it up on a winter day, then they will put that break in oil in every engine they make. The cost of a single engine replacement under warranty buys a LOT of oil additive.
As I've said before, the OEM's recommendation are based on the OEM's self interest in preventing warranty claims and lawsuits. They are NOT based on making your engine last as long as possible. The OEM would generally be happy to sell you a new car when your engine exploded 3 miles after the warranty lapsed. An engine that lasts 110k when the warranty is 100k is 10k miles of wasted life.
People put WAY too much stock in the "manufacturers recommendations" when they don't understand that most "manufacturers recommendations" are just pass through government mandates.
Wait until the first high-mile examples of cars running these GF6B oils 0w8 and 0w16 come in and you'll see just how smart the government is as mandating oil viscosities (via absurd CAFE requirements).
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Patman
Staff member
A lot of great information in your above post but I do have to disagree with this part. I do believe that Honda cares about the longevity of their engines, much like Toyota does too. Both of them have built their reputation on making engines that last a long time and it's how they get a lot of loyal repeat customers. If I bought a car of any brand where the engine died 10k after the warranty do you think I would buy another one? Certainly not, and I doubt they would get very many repeat customers if that was the case. Thankfully, Honda still makes very durable engines, there are a lot of 10th gen Civics with super high mileage on them (one even coming close to one million miles)
That being said, I don't think the first oil change interval or the second oil you choose will make that much of a difference in the entire lifespan of the engine. IMO one of the biggest things you can do to prolong the life of your engine is to drive it gently while it's warming up. I doubt very many engines will go 500k if your regular habit is to go full throttle right after starting a cold engine.
Well said...
I'll agree with your disagreement, in part. I do believe that Honda and Toyota (alone?) take quality seriously for its own sake. Perhaps it's a Japanese cultural thing or just a tradition, but I do think they are wanting engines to last.
The special break-in lube and delaying the OCI is recommended by them, it's because they are convinced that it's better *overall* for their customers and themselves. But that's because what's best by that measure might not be best for the careful BITOGer who is diligent in OCIs and who by all rights wants an engine to have essentially no wear in 500k miles because that BITOGer uses good oils and filters, keeps them serviceable, and generally avoids abuse.
But the BITOGer is not the typical customer. The average customer is far more reckless and clueless. To the contrary, it's the anti-BITOGer type who abuses and neglects vehicles that drives warranty costs more than most. THESE people are the reason special break-in additives are used AND desirable to retain well into the break-in period. Think Pareto effect here-- 80% of warranty cost driven by 20% of events/customers.
In effect, it's a redistribution of product life-- a tiny "tax" on the careful customers and their engines to reduce the risk of engine failure from the meatheads and clueless ones.
From an OEM perspective, it makes perfect sense to do what they do. My point is simply that a typical BITOG type is receiving no benefit from the practice, but rather might be incurring a small engine life penalty. And it would be small.
IF we weren't making big deals of small differences, would this still be BITOG?
Certainly not necessary, but preferred by me and many others. Of note Honda and Toyota do spec a significantly less restrictive media in their OEM filters. Take that for what it may be worth. It is also worth mentioning that there seems to be a noticeable drop in quality of oil filters across brands. Admittedly I get a bit more of a fuzzy feeling picking up the OEM filter for my applications as I would like to believe the filter manufactures may put more effort into making sure they supply filters with a low percentage of defects vs. the filters they ship out to the average consumers. I feel quality control may be of more importance when they are the supplier of the OE filters. This is just my opinion / preference.
This is kind of the same thought I have.
Where would one go to find these media specifications for OEM and aftermarket filters?
I've only seen them listed on this site over the years. One member did their own testing if I remember correctly, which reflected what the manufacturer had stated. Years ago some manufactures published that data, as least they would disclose it to you over email.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Manufacturers like to sell vehicles and use ‘lower maintenance costs’ as a selling point. While I’m sure a Honda engine would last a long time changing the oil by the MM...I’m sure it would last even longer with shorter OCIs.
Patman
Staff member
I have full confidence that going by the MM in my Civic will get me to 500,000km quite easily. I bought mine with 131,000 on it and it's now just shy of 220,000 and the engine doesn't burn any oil. I have followed the MM since I bought it, and looking at the service history from the first owner it looks like they did the same.
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