I'd pick the Civic, but see if you can live with the instrument panel design, if you don't have a problem with it, Civic hands down.
'08 Honda Civic or '09 Toyota Corolla?
- Thread starter ProfPS
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Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Originally Posted By: ffracer
...
If the Prius had a manual clutch gearbox, it would be even efficient and much more fun to drive. They have a test mule running around as a baseline at Toyota....
No, that's not correct. The concept of the HSD cars includes the motor-generators being an integral components in the transmission. It is not an "assist" arrangement, like the Honda. Take out the planetary gearset, and you take out the motor-generators.
Someone here (you, IIRC ffracer) once before insisted that this trans can "slip" like a traditional CVT or torque converter design. That's not correct either. The entire driveline is always connected, and there's no slippage, ever. The ICE is connected to the ring that carries planet gears between outer ring (which is connected to the large MG2, and which is connected to the drive wheels), and the center shaft, which is connected to the smaller MG1 (which acts as the starter for the ICE). You can be at a standstill, and rev the ICE, and there's still no slippage -- the outer ring stays still (hard connected to drive wheels), while the ICE simply drives the inner shaft, causing MG1 to charge the traction battery (and that power gets used later).
As I have explained many times, it does slip. It may not slip like a torque converter, but input does not equal output, unlike a manual. Toyota has manual Priuses running around as a baseline and they are more efficient.
It is not direct drive, it does not have eyes, it is simply a better way to do an automatic. Amazing engineering feat. but not the end all. It's value is in city driving. Outside of that, there are better choices, if you drive primarily non-city driving. In city driving today, it is hard to beat.
There is a reason Toyota is running a 6-speed manual hybrid Supra as a test mule in the Japan sports car series. It has electronic clutches with paddles and ultracapacitors.
A hybrid is two parts, the actual supplimental power, and the coupling.
The coupling is generally the same issue as before: driver paying attention or some computer guessing.
Originally Posted By: ffracer
...
If the Prius had a manual clutch gearbox, it would be even efficient and much more fun to drive. They have a test mule running around as a baseline at Toyota....
No, that's not correct. The concept of the HSD cars includes the motor-generators being an integral components in the transmission. It is not an "assist" arrangement, like the Honda. Take out the planetary gearset, and you take out the motor-generators.
Someone here (you, IIRC ffracer) once before insisted that this trans can "slip" like a traditional CVT or torque converter design. That's not correct either. The entire driveline is always connected, and there's no slippage, ever. The ICE is connected to the ring that carries planet gears between outer ring (which is connected to the large MG2, and which is connected to the drive wheels), and the center shaft, which is connected to the smaller MG1 (which acts as the starter for the ICE). You can be at a standstill, and rev the ICE, and there's still no slippage -- the outer ring stays still (hard connected to drive wheels), while the ICE simply drives the inner shaft, causing MG1 to charge the traction battery (and that power gets used later).
As I have explained many times, it does slip. It may not slip like a torque converter, but input does not equal output, unlike a manual. Toyota has manual Priuses running around as a baseline and they are more efficient.
It is not direct drive, it does not have eyes, it is simply a better way to do an automatic. Amazing engineering feat. but not the end all. It's value is in city driving. Outside of that, there are better choices, if you drive primarily non-city driving. In city driving today, it is hard to beat.
There is a reason Toyota is running a 6-speed manual hybrid Supra as a test mule in the Japan sports car series. It has electronic clutches with paddles and ultracapacitors.
A hybrid is two parts, the actual supplimental power, and the coupling.
The coupling is generally the same issue as before: driver paying attention or some computer guessing.
Our Escape hybrid uses the toyota driveline...planetary-based CVT. No clue who made the ICE (did ford by mitsubishi?)
1. The ICE is well balanced and dampened. It usually likes to sit at 2200 rpm, quite comfortable sound. If it spools up to 3k+, it's so well-balanced and pleasant sounding that it's not a problem at all in terms of drone. It actually sounds really good up there.
2. The CVT is great. Takes a while to get used to if your "mental" cruise control is by pitch/sound. I'm sure there are electrical losses since it biases one motor/gen against the other for the final trans ratio. BUT, it gets 39 mpg in a mixed hwy/city commute with the air on, so I'm not going to knock it for whatever perfection it may be missing.
Therefore, if the engine/chassis/body dynamics are balanced so that the noise isn't harsh, resonant, or otherwise droning, I think CVT's can be just fine. Pleasantly surprised with ours.
Mike
1. The ICE is well balanced and dampened. It usually likes to sit at 2200 rpm, quite comfortable sound. If it spools up to 3k+, it's so well-balanced and pleasant sounding that it's not a problem at all in terms of drone. It actually sounds really good up there.
2. The CVT is great. Takes a while to get used to if your "mental" cruise control is by pitch/sound. I'm sure there are electrical losses since it biases one motor/gen against the other for the final trans ratio. BUT, it gets 39 mpg in a mixed hwy/city commute with the air on, so I'm not going to knock it for whatever perfection it may be missing.
Therefore, if the engine/chassis/body dynamics are balanced so that the noise isn't harsh, resonant, or otherwise droning, I think CVT's can be just fine. Pleasantly surprised with ours.
Mike
Originally Posted By: ffracer
...
As I have explained many times, it does slip. It may not slip like a torque converter, but input does not equal output, unlike a manual.
And each one of the many times you've said this, you've been incorrect. The ICE is permanently connected to the planet gear carrier. The planet gears are permanently engaged to BOTH the outer ring (again, connected to MG2 and the drive wheels), AND the inner shaft (connected to the smaller MG1). Mechanically, it is impossible for the ICE to slip and do nothing. It drives either the outer ring, the inner shaft, or as is most often true, both. Power that goes to the outer ring drives the wheels. Power that goes to the inner shaft either goes into the battery or right back to MG2. The driveline never declutches, and there's no mode whatsovever in which the ICE can run and do nothing but slip.
Originally Posted By: ffracer
Toyota has manual Priuses running around as a baseline and they are more efficient.
The HSD design is fundamentally inconsistent with a clutched manual trans design. Now, I've heard of Prius test shells that simply have the Yaris driveline in them (the same 1.5L I-4 as the Prius, minus the hybrid system). These cars would most definitely NOT be as efficient as a Prius. I'm not going to declare that there aren't any experimental Honda-style Prius manual test cars out there, but I've been on the net scouring for info about my car for almost two years, and I've seen no evidence of the existence of such a car. Can you prove it exists?
Originally Posted By: ffracer
It is not direct drive...
Yes, it is direct drive. Again, the ICE is geared to the outer ring, which is directly geared to the drive wheels. Direct drive is exactly what it is.
Originally Posted By: ffracer
, it does not have eyes, it is simply a better way to do an automatic. Amazing engineering feat. but not the end all. It's value is in city driving. Outside of that, there are better choices, if you drive primarily non-city driving. In city driving today, it is hard to beat.
Who said it "had eyes"? While this is a debatable point, I don't see the HSD CVT as simply a "better automatic". It's something different from either manuals or current stepped autos. Frankly, I think that it works better than both. The other thing you're overlooking is how, for non-city driving, the engineers have cleverly paired up the special characteristics of the engine (primarily the VVT-driven Atkinson cycle operation), with the transmission, to produce a unit that does very well both in the city and out.
Originally Posted By: ffracer
A hybrid is two parts, the actual supplimental power, and the coupling.
Again, one of the other key concepts you're missing is that the "coupling" as you refer to it, is integral with the motor generators -- with this design, you can't have one without the other.
...
As I have explained many times, it does slip. It may not slip like a torque converter, but input does not equal output, unlike a manual.
And each one of the many times you've said this, you've been incorrect. The ICE is permanently connected to the planet gear carrier. The planet gears are permanently engaged to BOTH the outer ring (again, connected to MG2 and the drive wheels), AND the inner shaft (connected to the smaller MG1). Mechanically, it is impossible for the ICE to slip and do nothing. It drives either the outer ring, the inner shaft, or as is most often true, both. Power that goes to the outer ring drives the wheels. Power that goes to the inner shaft either goes into the battery or right back to MG2. The driveline never declutches, and there's no mode whatsovever in which the ICE can run and do nothing but slip.
Originally Posted By: ffracer
Toyota has manual Priuses running around as a baseline and they are more efficient.
The HSD design is fundamentally inconsistent with a clutched manual trans design. Now, I've heard of Prius test shells that simply have the Yaris driveline in them (the same 1.5L I-4 as the Prius, minus the hybrid system). These cars would most definitely NOT be as efficient as a Prius. I'm not going to declare that there aren't any experimental Honda-style Prius manual test cars out there, but I've been on the net scouring for info about my car for almost two years, and I've seen no evidence of the existence of such a car. Can you prove it exists?
Originally Posted By: ffracer
It is not direct drive...
Yes, it is direct drive. Again, the ICE is geared to the outer ring, which is directly geared to the drive wheels. Direct drive is exactly what it is.
Originally Posted By: ffracer
, it does not have eyes, it is simply a better way to do an automatic. Amazing engineering feat. but not the end all. It's value is in city driving. Outside of that, there are better choices, if you drive primarily non-city driving. In city driving today, it is hard to beat.
Who said it "had eyes"? While this is a debatable point, I don't see the HSD CVT as simply a "better automatic". It's something different from either manuals or current stepped autos. Frankly, I think that it works better than both. The other thing you're overlooking is how, for non-city driving, the engineers have cleverly paired up the special characteristics of the engine (primarily the VVT-driven Atkinson cycle operation), with the transmission, to produce a unit that does very well both in the city and out.
Originally Posted By: ffracer
A hybrid is two parts, the actual supplimental power, and the coupling.
Again, one of the other key concepts you're missing is that the "coupling" as you refer to it, is integral with the motor generators -- with this design, you can't have one without the other.
Giving this some more thought, two things come to mind. First, we're 'jacking this thread pretty good. Apologies the O/P and other participants.
Second, ff, it occurs to me that we may not be arguing about the same thing. Please tell me how you define "slippage". The HSD cars do not have any slippage at all, at least in what I view as the "traditional" view of such. To me, that would mean things like a clutch slipping (intentionally or from wear), or the inherent losses from a torque converter. By contrast, an HSD car suffers no such losses. All of its output goes either to the drive wheels, or into the traction battery (via MG1). The most extreme example of what you're probably thinking of as "slippage" occurs when the car is at a standstill, but with the ICE running (which typically happens either in the "warm up" cycle or in a low charge state). In this situation, the outer ring of the PGS remains stationary (since it's geared to the wheels), and the planet gears drive the center shaft, which turns MG1, and all of the output goes to charging the traction battery.
Your thoughts?
Second, ff, it occurs to me that we may not be arguing about the same thing. Please tell me how you define "slippage". The HSD cars do not have any slippage at all, at least in what I view as the "traditional" view of such. To me, that would mean things like a clutch slipping (intentionally or from wear), or the inherent losses from a torque converter. By contrast, an HSD car suffers no such losses. All of its output goes either to the drive wheels, or into the traction battery (via MG1). The most extreme example of what you're probably thinking of as "slippage" occurs when the car is at a standstill, but with the ICE running (which typically happens either in the "warm up" cycle or in a low charge state). In this situation, the outer ring of the PGS remains stationary (since it's geared to the wheels), and the planet gears drive the center shaft, which turns MG1, and all of the output goes to charging the traction battery.
Your thoughts?
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Stopped by a Toyota dealer today and picked up brochures on both the '09 Corolla and '09 Matrix; I've had the '08 Civic brochure for a couple weeks. Not too many dealers in CT have many cars inside like in the south and I didn't feel like checking one out in the rain.
Thanks for everyones input. I don't want to kill the post so keep adding to it; great comments regarding various trans'.
Prof.
Thanks for everyones input. I don't want to kill the post so keep adding to it; great comments regarding various trans'.
Prof.
I have an 08 corolla le 5 speed, yeah it is not a horsepower monster but I got it for its rock solid reliability, mpg, and as I am finding out (thanks bill) it's ease of maintenance.
I am 6'1" and have no problems with the cabin. Yes I do wish the steering wheel would telescope out as well as go up and down but I got used to it. Longest trip so far has been about an hour and a half and I had no problem. I guess everyone is different.
I drove an 08 civic and think it is a nicer *looking* car but I got a better deal with the corolla. As a daily commuter that gets great mileage I am happy with it.
I am 6'1" and have no problems with the cabin. Yes I do wish the steering wheel would telescope out as well as go up and down but I got used to it. Longest trip so far has been about an hour and a half and I had no problem. I guess everyone is different.
I drove an 08 civic and think it is a nicer *looking* car but I got a better deal with the corolla. As a daily commuter that gets great mileage I am happy with it.
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At the Portland auto show we sat in a new Corolla. The HVAC controls were incredibly cheap. Further confirming my sons(journalism major) point that Toyota is becoming the next GM.
Brunette or Redhead? Ginger or Mary Ann? At least neither of them are Mrs. Howell.
I'd say try them out back to back, and choose whichever one makes you smile the most....I'm talking about the cars...
I'd say try them out back to back, and choose whichever one makes you smile the most....I'm talking about the cars...
Honda ergonomics are top notch. I have been driving the current generation Civic for about two years now, and my opinion is that everything is intuitive and comfortable. The radio and HVAC controls are of high quality; the dials have a pleasant, tactile feel to them. Not too flimsy, not too rough. The heads-up speedo is a love/hate thing with most people; I love it.
The Corolla is quieter, with a softer ride. The Civic is a bit louder but the suspension is poised and responsive. Pick the one that is most suited for your personality.
As a comparative note, my [unrevised] EPA estimates say 23/32. In day-to-day town driving, I average 28 mpg. Needless to say, I am thrilled.
The Corolla is quieter, with a softer ride. The Civic is a bit louder but the suspension is poised and responsive. Pick the one that is most suited for your personality.
As a comparative note, my [unrevised] EPA estimates say 23/32. In day-to-day town driving, I average 28 mpg. Needless to say, I am thrilled.
tele, i read your mpg estimates and thought it can't be right. then i realized you had an SI
I might as well clarify, I was talking about the 1.8L Civic when writing those comparisons. I just threw in the gas mileage hub-bub to give you an idea of my 2.0L's consumption.
Once, and only once, I was able to reach a 38.4 MPG average (as told by my ScanGauge) on a twenty-minute highway trip.
Going 55 miles an hour.
Once, and only once, I was able to reach a 38.4 MPG average (as told by my ScanGauge) on a twenty-minute highway trip.
Going 55 miles an hour.
Originally Posted By: televascular
Honda ergonomics are top notch.
This is usually true (as I used to work for Honda and my wife and I have owned many) but I found 1 HUGE design flaw with this generation Civic that prevents me from buying one-- the position of the handbrake.
I recently got a bug up my rear for a new car and decided to check an Si sedan out at the dealer. Upon sitting in it, I noticed the handbrake jabbing right into the knee bone of my right leg. I thought, "there's no way this is going to work." A few days later I asked a coworker who has a 2007 Civic EX if I could take it for a decent spin. 10 minutes later, my suspicions were confirmed-- PAIN IN THE RIGHT LEG!
If you're shorter than me (6 ft.), it may be OK for you. But I found it undriveable.
Here's a review of the interior and driving position from 2006:
http://www.autobytel.com/content/shared/...cle_id_int/1084
The 2009 Civic which won't be out until Aug./Sept. will have its mid-model run refresh. Hopefully, Honda will address the handbrake issue as many folks have had a beef with this. Heck, it's probably the only thing that prevented me from buying one.
Chris
Honda ergonomics are top notch.
This is usually true (as I used to work for Honda and my wife and I have owned many) but I found 1 HUGE design flaw with this generation Civic that prevents me from buying one-- the position of the handbrake.
I recently got a bug up my rear for a new car and decided to check an Si sedan out at the dealer. Upon sitting in it, I noticed the handbrake jabbing right into the knee bone of my right leg. I thought, "there's no way this is going to work." A few days later I asked a coworker who has a 2007 Civic EX if I could take it for a decent spin. 10 minutes later, my suspicions were confirmed-- PAIN IN THE RIGHT LEG!
If you're shorter than me (6 ft.), it may be OK for you. But I found it undriveable.
Here's a review of the interior and driving position from 2006:
http://www.autobytel.com/content/shared/...cle_id_int/1084
The 2009 Civic which won't be out until Aug./Sept. will have its mid-model run refresh. Hopefully, Honda will address the handbrake issue as many folks have had a beef with this. Heck, it's probably the only thing that prevented me from buying one.
Chris
I think either is a fine choice and the buying decision would probably boil down to personal preferences.
I was in a similar position almost exactly 1 year ago. I choose the Corolla with 5sp manual. Here is my mini-review:
My most important purchasing criteria were economy and ease to work on. I didn't even drive the auto, but the 5sp helps with both fuel economy and driving pleasure. I have no problem merging or keeping up with traffic. I really don't have any complaints with the car. The first couple of months the driving position did seem a bit off, but I have found the seat position I like and I no longer notice it. It also took me a couple of months to get used to the sound of the timing chain before it warms up. It seems pretty quiet once warmed up, though.
I also got the LE model with the faux wood trim. The interior is really nice for a car in this price range. After 1 year 15,000 miles the interior is nice and tight and looks brand new. My neighbor bought a honda fit at the same time and has had a terrible time with the interior rattling. He told me he has taken it back to the dealer 5 times to try and get it fixed. He thinks they just made it worse. He also gets worse mileage than I do with my rolla, even though he does much more hwy driving.
The two UOA's I have done have been FANTASTIC!
Have fun car shopping
I was in a similar position almost exactly 1 year ago. I choose the Corolla with 5sp manual. Here is my mini-review:
My most important purchasing criteria were economy and ease to work on. I didn't even drive the auto, but the 5sp helps with both fuel economy and driving pleasure. I have no problem merging or keeping up with traffic. I really don't have any complaints with the car. The first couple of months the driving position did seem a bit off, but I have found the seat position I like and I no longer notice it. It also took me a couple of months to get used to the sound of the timing chain before it warms up. It seems pretty quiet once warmed up, though.
I also got the LE model with the faux wood trim. The interior is really nice for a car in this price range. After 1 year 15,000 miles the interior is nice and tight and looks brand new. My neighbor bought a honda fit at the same time and has had a terrible time with the interior rattling. He told me he has taken it back to the dealer 5 times to try and get it fixed. He thinks they just made it worse. He also gets worse mileage than I do with my rolla, even though he does much more hwy driving.
The two UOA's I have done have been FANTASTIC!
Have fun car shopping
Originally Posted By: ProfPS
I am considering getting a daily commuter that will last until the doors fall off (>10 years). I have narrowed it down to these two with auto transmissions which are very close in MPG, hp, size, and safety. Which one is preferred and why?
Thanks.
I suggest waiting for the 2009 Honda Accord Diesel. It will get 52 mpg highway and should pay for itself through the fuel savings you will have over its life time depending on the length of your commute.
Not to mention, Honda is rated #1, so a Honda would probably be a better choice than a Toyota right now. This is coming from someone who both drives and loves a 1995 Toyota Avalon that has been in his family since 1995.
I am considering getting a daily commuter that will last until the doors fall off (>10 years). I have narrowed it down to these two with auto transmissions which are very close in MPG, hp, size, and safety. Which one is preferred and why?
Thanks.
I suggest waiting for the 2009 Honda Accord Diesel. It will get 52 mpg highway and should pay for itself through the fuel savings you will have over its life time depending on the length of your commute.
Not to mention, Honda is rated #1, so a Honda would probably be a better choice than a Toyota right now. This is coming from someone who both drives and loves a 1995 Toyota Avalon that has been in his family since 1995.
I have a 2007 Honda Civic Lx A/T.
Bought it Exactly a year ago on March 12
It looks very nice IMO.
I Considered waiting for the new corolla back in 07 but i said nahh. and i am glad i didn't wait because the new corolla IMO is disappointing.
Everything is new in the civic. From body to engine to interior.
If i recall Toyota is still using the same engine as in the previous corollas?
The civic gets great MPG i get about 30 mpg every time in city driving.
The exhaust tip is so clean you cant believe it!!
This car is a ULEV ( ultra low emission vehicle which is always a +
the ride is smooth and the suspension is VERY, and i mean VERy refined and responsive for a LX model. I couldn't believe it. Being stock this is one of the best handling cars i have driven as goes for economy sedans. MY brother has a coilover suspension system in his 95 civic and it doest even come close to this. ITs unbelievable.
Interior is weird when you step in it at first. But very shortly you will LOVE it. The only thing i do not like is the light greanish display lights on all accessories. should have been white.
The 5 speed a/t is great and at highway driving is in a low rpm. to get good MPG.
MY lx has only 160 watts radio and its a little bit weak for me. an 18 year old so i recently put in an 12 inch subwoofer in the car. Woow so mych better!
There is a lifetime warrenty on the muffler ! hah good that i dont plan on selling this car.
Some down sides to this car are like stated before, the handbreak is touching your knee most of the time so you have to find a way to avoid it. I notice this problem only when i am relaxing in the car (not driving) and just spreading my legs apart.
The plastic is nice but its delicate in a way. have to be care full with it.
Getting in and out of the car is a pain sometimes. but once you are in you feel pretty good and have alot of space.
My buddy with a scion tc gave me a compliment on how much more space this car has then his.
Honda has a history of [censored] automatic transmissions so i recommend doing tranny fluid changes every 20-30k miles.
In conclusion Both cars are good cars. They will last a long time. Get what you can get cheaper insurance. Get the car that you have a better history with , the car brand that you love more. If you like to work on cars the corolla has a much more accesible compartment to work on.
Good luck with your choice and if you need any other info ill be happy to reply
Bought it Exactly a year ago on March 12
It looks very nice IMO.
I Considered waiting for the new corolla back in 07 but i said nahh. and i am glad i didn't wait because the new corolla IMO is disappointing.
Everything is new in the civic. From body to engine to interior.
If i recall Toyota is still using the same engine as in the previous corollas?
The civic gets great MPG i get about 30 mpg every time in city driving.
The exhaust tip is so clean you cant believe it!!
This car is a ULEV ( ultra low emission vehicle which is always a +
the ride is smooth and the suspension is VERY, and i mean VERy refined and responsive for a LX model. I couldn't believe it. Being stock this is one of the best handling cars i have driven as goes for economy sedans. MY brother has a coilover suspension system in his 95 civic and it doest even come close to this. ITs unbelievable.
Interior is weird when you step in it at first. But very shortly you will LOVE it. The only thing i do not like is the light greanish display lights on all accessories. should have been white.
The 5 speed a/t is great and at highway driving is in a low rpm. to get good MPG.
MY lx has only 160 watts radio and its a little bit weak for me. an 18 year old so i recently put in an 12 inch subwoofer in the car. Woow so mych better!
There is a lifetime warrenty on the muffler ! hah good that i dont plan on selling this car.
Some down sides to this car are like stated before, the handbreak is touching your knee most of the time so you have to find a way to avoid it. I notice this problem only when i am relaxing in the car (not driving) and just spreading my legs apart.
The plastic is nice but its delicate in a way. have to be care full with it.
Getting in and out of the car is a pain sometimes. but once you are in you feel pretty good and have alot of space.
My buddy with a scion tc gave me a compliment on how much more space this car has then his.
Honda has a history of [censored] automatic transmissions so i recommend doing tranny fluid changes every 20-30k miles.
In conclusion Both cars are good cars. They will last a long time. Get what you can get cheaper insurance. Get the car that you have a better history with , the car brand that you love more. If you like to work on cars the corolla has a much more accesible compartment to work on.
Good luck with your choice and if you need any other info ill be happy to reply
Originally Posted By: Bulli
Honda has a history of [censored] automatic transmissions so i recommend doing tranny fluid changes every 20-30k miles.
The five-speed automatics in the four cylinders have never had any problems. Only the ones in the V6 were problematic. The new Civic is one of the few Honda automatics that have an ATF life monitor. When it's time for a service, a code 3 will be displayed in the Maintenance Minder. On the other models, it just goes by distance, but in the Civic there's a computer algorithm that calculates fluid life.
Honda has a history of [censored] automatic transmissions so i recommend doing tranny fluid changes every 20-30k miles.
The five-speed automatics in the four cylinders have never had any problems. Only the ones in the V6 were problematic. The new Civic is one of the few Honda automatics that have an ATF life monitor. When it's time for a service, a code 3 will be displayed in the Maintenance Minder. On the other models, it just goes by distance, but in the Civic there's a computer algorithm that calculates fluid life.
Originally Posted By: ShiningArcanine
Originally Posted By: ProfPS
I am considering getting a daily commuter that will last until the doors fall off (>10 years). I have narrowed it down to these two with auto transmissions which are very close in MPG, hp, size, and safety. Which one is preferred and why?
Thanks.
I suggest waiting for the 2009 Honda Accord Diesel. It will get 52 mpg highway and should pay for itself through the fuel savings you will have over its life time depending on the length of your commute.
Not to mention, Honda is rated #1, so a Honda would probably be a better choice than a Toyota right now. This is coming from someone who both drives and loves a 1995 Toyota Avalon that has been in his family since 1995.
With Diesel being 70 cents a gallon more than gas, it will take forever (or close to it) *IF* you see any savings over a gas 2.4l Accord.
And the forcast is for diesel to be close to $5 a gallon and never below $4 starting this driving season.
Thank the low sulfur requirements and the refinery getting more gas out of each barrel than diesel.
If they did not charge any more for the diesel, then yes I'd go for it, but for a $4-5k more.. Nope.
Take care, bill
Originally Posted By: ProfPS
I am considering getting a daily commuter that will last until the doors fall off (>10 years). I have narrowed it down to these two with auto transmissions which are very close in MPG, hp, size, and safety. Which one is preferred and why?
Thanks.
I suggest waiting for the 2009 Honda Accord Diesel. It will get 52 mpg highway and should pay for itself through the fuel savings you will have over its life time depending on the length of your commute.
Not to mention, Honda is rated #1, so a Honda would probably be a better choice than a Toyota right now. This is coming from someone who both drives and loves a 1995 Toyota Avalon that has been in his family since 1995.
With Diesel being 70 cents a gallon more than gas, it will take forever (or close to it) *IF* you see any savings over a gas 2.4l Accord.
And the forcast is for diesel to be close to $5 a gallon and never below $4 starting this driving season.
Thank the low sulfur requirements and the refinery getting more gas out of each barrel than diesel.
If they did not charge any more for the diesel, then yes I'd go for it, but for a $4-5k more.. Nope.
Take care, bill
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