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2-cycle oil as a fuel add in 4-cycle engine #1107478
03/16/08 07:43 PM
03/16/08 07:43 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 13,132
By Detroit
TallPaul Offline OP
TallPaul  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 13,132
By Detroit
In the thread "Most wear occurs at startup," Audi Junkie suggested that use of 2-cycle oil as a fuel additive may help reduce cold start and warm up wear. He also noted some other good qualities of 2-cycle oil that could be beneficial as a fuel additive for 4-cycle engines:

 Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Now, I leave my car run if it is still cold. After it's warm, I'll shut down if I stop for more than 30 sec to a minute. Once it's warm, it cranks easy and start wear is NOTHING. Also, I think 2 cycle oil in gas can help start up wear. I put a double dose in when temps go down to single digits.

I'm on my 3rd gallon of PZ Marine 2C oil, $10. Real cost is $7 because it replaces a G of gas. At 500:1, it costs me about $.18c to treat 10 gallons, under $.02c a gallon. Used it since new on the Accord. To break-even, I need an extra 2 miles out of that 10 gallons, or 300 miles driving. 1% gain is a reasonable goal from the entire automobile system.

It's not just break-even, because the 2C has other fuel additives, etc...it just improves the fuel. It protects the fuel system from alcohols too. Anyway, I think I get that 1% and more. Engine definately runs nicer. Excellent for track vehicles.

It's tough to justify spending extra money for fuel, but I think this is a winnner. I'd love to see a UOA of a 2C user. Kinda off-topic, but as a cold weather start wear protector...I think it is a total hit.


Valvoline website info for their Multi Purpose 2-Cycle Oil:
 Quote:
Use where an SAE 30, 40 or 50 grade is specified
Protects against piston deposits and scuffing for better engine performance

Protects against wear and corrosion

Keeps spark plugs and exhaust ports clean

Provides rust protection during storage

Is pre-diluted and tinted blue

Provides excellent performance in lawn mowers, chain saws, string trimmers, outboard engines, jet skis, motorcycles and snow blowers


Seems that this stuff would not only help lube the rings during cold start and warm up, but also would help prevent rust during prolonged periods on non use, and would help keep the plugs and valves clean. Seems like a winning situation.

Of course I would run at Audi Junkie's recommended 1 in 500 ratio.

On the other hand, would I be better off with an equal concentration of Schaeffer's Neutra 131?

Re: 2-cycle oil as a fuel add in 4-cycle engine [Re: TallPaul] #1107534
03/16/08 09:14 PM
03/16/08 09:14 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 11,247
PA
Audi Junkie Offline
Audi Junkie  Offline

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Well, the 3oz dose is what UCL and MMO calls for. I noted how those "top oils" don't have any additives. My decision to try and to use 2C actually came from a fuels thread, where gas additives were brought into question. I figured, hey, good quality as a top oil PLUS some additives, like stabilizers, AW anti-friction, etc. 2C actually passes a quality test too. You can't say that about any other top oil. I won't get into the economics of it, but all I need for break-even mpg is 2 miles from 10 gallons of fuel. It's a cheap gas treatment.

The best way of looking at it was to ask if people would feel comfortable using MMO or UCL in a 2 cycle engine mix, and if not why use it in 4-cycle? btw- Lucas at $10/ quart is a total rip-off. I pay that for a gallon of PZ 2C Marine Semi-Synth.


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Re: 2-cycle oil as a fuel add in 4-cycle engine [Re: TallPaul] #1107535
03/16/08 09:15 PM
03/16/08 09:15 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,742
Northern California, USA
Loobed Offline
Loobed  Offline

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Posts: 3,742
Northern California, USA
 Originally Posted By: TallPaul
In the thread "Most wear occurs at startup," Audi Junkie suggested that use of 2-cycle oil as a fuel additive may help reduce cold start and warm up wear. He also noted some other good qualities of 2-cycle oil that could be beneficial as a fuel additive for 4-cycle engines:


Valvoline website info for their Multi Purpose 2-Cycle Oil:
 Quote:

Protects against piston deposits and scuffing for better engine performance

Protects against wear and corrosion

Keeps spark plugs and exhaust ports clean

Provides rust protection during storage







<My Opinion>

You are not replacing 1 gallon of fuel because the 2 cycle oil does not produce power. If you are running it at 500:1 ratio, then you are getting 1/500 less power from you motor. That's a loss of 1/2 to 1/3 horsepower (ahhh catastrophe). There may be a larger loss if the oil prevents some of the fuel from combusting. There could also be a gain in power if the oil reduces upper cylinder friction or helps seal the rings to the cylinder wall and piston. I have no way of testing those scenarios.

I use 2 cycle oil in my car to keep the alcohol in the fuel from oxidizing/corroding the fuel and sending-unit wires. This corrosion is a problem with the gas we have in California. I think sulfur in the fuel also harms the wires. The oil also reducing the corrosion in the steel fuel lines and fuel rail. It may also help reduce corrosion of the injectors and lube the rubber/silicone seals throughout the fuel system.

The 2 cycle oil may increase carbon deposits in the chamber and on the valves which could reduce power and engine life. I ran 2 cycle oil in my air cooled 4 cylinder motorcycle and the carbs and the intake and exhaust runners were always super clean, even after 100,000 miles. the 2 engines are different animals, but I think it helps; although, I do not have any scientific proof.

I think when they say "keeps spark-plugs and exhaust ports clean" they are referring to full strength in a 2 stroke engine and compared to the old style oils from 30+ years ago that required you to carry a spare plugs. At 500:1 I don't think it has any cleaning action.

</opinion>


Engine: 2001 GM 5.3L LM7
Current Fill: Valvoline Synpower 5w-30 w/Pure-One PL25288 filter

I.M.N Oil Enthusiast
Re: 2-cycle oil as a fuel add in 4-cycle engine [Re: Audi Junkie] #1107547
03/16/08 09:31 PM
03/16/08 09:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,346
Texas
Dyoel182 Offline
Dyoel182  Offline

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,346
Texas
 Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
btw- Lucas at $10/ quart is a total rip-off. I pay that for a gallon of PZ 2C Marine Semi-Synth.


I agree. Its a better buy in the gallon for $20 though MMO is an even better deal at $12 a gallon.

Re: 2-cycle oil as a fuel add in 4-cycle engine [Re: Dyoel182] #1107564
03/16/08 10:09 PM
03/16/08 10:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,742
Northern California, USA
Loobed Offline
Loobed  Offline

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,742
Northern California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Dyoel182
 Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
btw- Lucas at $10/ quart is a total rip-off. I pay that for a gallon of PZ 2C Marine Semi-Synth.


I agree. Its a better buy in the gallon for $20 though MMO is an even better deal at $12 a gallon.



MMO has phosphorus. Phosphorus screws up the cats.


Engine: 2001 GM 5.3L LM7
Current Fill: Valvoline Synpower 5w-30 w/Pure-One PL25288 filter

I.M.N Oil Enthusiast
Re: 2-cycle oil as a fuel add in 4-cycle engine [Re: Loobed] #1107574
03/16/08 10:32 PM
03/16/08 10:32 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 11,247
PA
Audi Junkie Offline
Audi Junkie  Offline

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Posts: 11,247
PA
That's one of the main things about the other top oils, no standard for deposits. 2C meets TCW-3, a stringent spec. As far as it replacing gas, it indeed has a specific thermal content. If it is less than gas, ok, but it must be 70-80 percent as dense. Remember, we are talking about a few ounces, 500:1...if it has half the thermal density as gas, we are talking about 1/1000 reduction in the thermal content of the fuel overall. If I have 150hp, we are talking about .15 hp before we consider the additives, smoother burn and increased compression. A non-issue, imo. 2 cycle engines don't seem to be impared by a less dense fuel.


2008 Opel Astra 1.8 VVT 5M
2010 VW Tiguan 2.0 TSI 6M
(APR Powered)
Re: 2-cycle oil as a fuel add in 4-cycle engine [Re: Loobed] #1107596
03/16/08 11:22 PM
03/16/08 11:22 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,346
Texas
Dyoel182 Offline
Dyoel182  Offline

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Posts: 1,346
Texas
 Originally Posted By: Loobed
MMO has phosphorus. Phosphorus screws up the cats.


Not in the amount you'd normally add to a tank of gas.

Re: 2-cycle oil as a fuel add in 4-cycle engine [Re: Dyoel182] #1107652
03/17/08 07:02 AM
03/17/08 07:02 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 13,132
By Detroit
TallPaul Offline OP
TallPaul  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 13,132
By Detroit
Only thing about the Valvoline multi purpose I posted above, it's pre-diluted. Not sure what that means, but maybe need to go to a larger proportion than 1 in 500. Or maybe better to use their marine 2-cycle oil:
 Quote:
2-Cycle Outboard Marine Oil - NMMA(BIA) TC-W3 Certified

Valvoline Outboard 2-Cycle Marine Oil is a superior quality two-cycle lubricant specifically designed for water-cooled, high-revving engines with pre-mix or injection systems. A blend of premium base stocks and advance ashless detergent additives, 2-Cycle Marine Oil provides maximum performance for outboard engines.

Minimizes wear, combustion chamber deposits, ring sticking, piston burning, port blocking and spark plug fouling

Enhances engine performance

Prolongs engine life

Meets and exceeds warranty requirements of all leading engine manufacturer's (ie: Evinrude, Johnson, Mercury, Yamaha, Suzuki and others) where an NMMA/(BIA) certified TC-W3 or preceding specification is recommended

Re: 2-cycle oil as a fuel add in 4-cycle engine [Re: TallPaul] #1107705
03/17/08 09:18 AM
03/17/08 09:18 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,346
Texas
Dyoel182 Offline
Dyoel182  Offline

Joined: Jul 2005
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Texas
Ok so with MMO you use 6oz per tank and with Lucas you use 5.25oz (according to their pre-measured bottles which I re-use). In a 15 gallon tank you'd be using how much 2 cycle oil?

Re: 2-cycle oil as a fuel add in 4-cycle engine [Re: Dyoel182] #1107722
03/17/08 09:59 AM
03/17/08 09:59 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 13,132
By Detroit
TallPaul Offline OP
TallPaul  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 13,132
By Detroit
Four gallons is 512 oz, so I'd use 1 oz per 4 gallons. For a 15 gal tank, likely fillup would be around 12 gallons, so three ounces.

I figure this might be good with my '95 F150 which sits outside and doesn't consume appreciable oil.

For the Aerostar I would not do it because the Aerostar already consumes a quart every 1000-1300 miles. Don't need to add any more oil to the combustion stream.

The motorhome sits for a couple months at a crack in winter and summer, so this might be good for the motorhome, but I also need a fuel stabilizer, so probaby stick with Neutra 131 for the motorhome.

Re: 2-cycle oil as a fuel add in 4-cycle engine [Re: TallPaul] #1107733
03/17/08 10:10 AM
03/17/08 10:10 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,346
Texas
Dyoel182 Offline
Dyoel182  Offline

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,346
Texas
Thats a good point about consuming oil to begin with. I'll just stick with the MMO/LUCL mixture I keep in a jug now.

Re: 2-cycle oil as a fuel add in 4-cycle engine [Re: Dyoel182] #1107762
03/17/08 10:38 AM
03/17/08 10:38 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 687
Chicago, IL
gomes512 Offline
gomes512  Offline

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 687
Chicago, IL
My Jeep's inline 6 has been on a steady diet of 2stroke oil. Currently running Cabela's semi-syn 2 stroke. No idea who makes the oil for them.

I have been running Rotella 5w-40 in the winter and am currently at the 3500 mile mark. I will send in a sample for analysis as I have not done so in quite some time. Worried about fuel dilution as the engine sees a lot of idle time.

Anyways, interesting side note is that I stopped blowing fuel pumps on a regular basis ever since I started using 2 stroke oil. Haven't ever noticed a difference in mpg or running quality. I ran a can of combustion chamber cleaner from Mopar last summer for the first time in that engine. Noticed no difference in running quality. Engine has been running like a top ever since we purchased it.

So either the cleaner did nothing or there wasn't any noticable buildup.

Re: 2-cycle oil as a fuel add in 4-cycle engine [Re: TallPaul] #1108288
03/17/08 11:31 PM
03/17/08 11:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,742
Northern California, USA
Loobed Offline
Loobed  Offline

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Northern California, USA
 Originally Posted By: TallPaul


For the Aerostar I would not do it because the Aerostar already consumes a quart every 1000-1300 miles. Don't need to add any more oil to the combustion stream.




Using 2 cycle oil in the fuel tank is not just for combustion or upper cylinder lubrication. It lubes the rubber seals, prevents the fuel lines from rusting, lubes the fuel pump, and can prevent the sending unit from going bad.


Engine: 2001 GM 5.3L LM7
Current Fill: Valvoline Synpower 5w-30 w/Pure-One PL25288 filter

I.M.N Oil Enthusiast
Re: 2-cycle oil as a fuel add in 4-cycle engine [Re: Loobed] #1108300
03/18/08 12:22 AM
03/18/08 12:22 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 11,247
PA
Audi Junkie Offline
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I also think it would be good for consumption, sealing the rings better.


2008 Opel Astra 1.8 VVT 5M
2010 VW Tiguan 2.0 TSI 6M
(APR Powered)
Re: 2-cycle oil as a fuel add in 4-cycle engine [Re: Audi Junkie] #1108322
03/18/08 02:31 AM
03/18/08 02:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
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OR
SecondMonkey Offline
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OR
 Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
I also think it would be good for consumption, sealing the rings better.


Indeed. I have been using pennzoil outboard oil at about 250:1 in my jeep for a few thousand miles now. Oil consumption (at 217k) has been reduced from about 1 quart/3k to near nothing. Other than that I haven't noticed any other differences in the engine. My fuel pump however is much more quiet.


"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
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