2-cycle oil as a fuel add in 4-cycle engine

[SecondMonkey]

Originally Posted By: ikeepmychevytoo
If oil consumpion is reduced 2-stroke oil is not "keeeping clean" it actually cleans. At least I hope it cleans the exhaust valves/ports. I succeded in cleaning the intake valves with regular, oily fuel additives by directly pouring down the throttle a little at a time and let it stay there overnight. But cleaning the exhaust valves looks harder. Cleansers just burns up in the combustion I think, since while in the tank these never worked for intake valves too.


Yeah, it's certainly cleaner to burn the 2 cycle oil than 10w30. I have to go get an emissions test soon, I'm going to do it with 250:1 in the tank and see if I pass. (There's no charge if I fail)

 

[Dyoel182]

Someone help me with my math here for a second. For a 15 gallon tank you'd use almost 4oz of 2-stroke oil, compared to lets say 5.5oz of MMO/UCL. Now since I mix UCL and MMO 50/50 in a gallon jug, how much 2 stroke oil would I need to add to a gallon of the mixture to still come out right with adding a 5-6oz bottle of the stuff to an empty tank? I've been trying to wrap my head around it all morning.

 

[TallPaul]

Originally Posted By: Jax_RX8
I think he meant the same base oil, with different additive packs for the various purposes. E.g. marine oils normally have more corrosion additives and Snomobile oils tend to have additional additives to assure low temp mixing.
Maybe so, but I kept at it long enough that I am convinced he meant the whole package. Also, three of them have product data sheets on the web, and the values for about 7 listed parameters are exactly the same. BTW, flash point is about 65 C, so would think it would combust pretty easily. I suspect it provides the special attributes of snowmobile, marine, etc, all in one. Anyway, I'll buy whichever is there. And I dug deeper on the site for the Marine and it also says pre-diluted. Have no idea what that means and neither did the tech. I plan to get some today!

 

[Atechguy]

DYOEL182 I think it would be 1 US gal.=128 0z.-Divided by 5.5=23 x4= 92 ounces to 1 gallon. Hope thats right.

 

[Dyoel182]

Hmm, thats more than a half gallon which is what I'm comfortable with at the most. When I really think about it a quart of each would get you 2oz of MMO, 2oz of UCL and 2oz of 2 stroke per application. That should be plenty of lubrication as well as cleaning.

 

[TallPaul]

If they are all the same, bikers are getting ripped off. Murrays had the Valvo all purpose (which says can use in bikes) for $2.99 a quart, but the motorcycle packaged Valvoline was $3.59 or so for a pint!

Going out to pour 4 oz into the Aerostar right now!

What I like about 2-cycle oil as a fuel add is that it is adventurous.

Where's the adventure in adding Gumout Regaine or similar stuff? Some adventure in adding Schaeffer's Neutra 131 as it says for industrial use only, but still, it's made for fuel additive purposes.

 

[JHZR2]

Ive been putting 1-2 oz of amsoil saber outboard as an additive in my 91 BMW 318i, and it runs great, seemingly slightly stronger!

JMH

 

[ikeepmychevytoo]

For being adventurous years ago I thought since my car never low on oil, upper cylinders could be starving so a little oil there like those burners always have would be good. I could force feed the horses. I've been pouring leftover fresh oils to the tank. 1/4 lt at a time so the chambers wouldn't administer more oil than an oil burner that just could claim warranty (1 liter per 1000km.)

At first it gave pep (I think), later the pep gone. So I doubled the dose, but still the initial pep wasn't there. I thought it eventually contributed to valve deposits and realised the period was a bell curve and and I was at the end of it with carbonous deposits. Still have a liter of 10w 20 Mobil that bought cheap.

Now with two strokers, 1/1000 to 1/500 strict.

 

[Jonny Z]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
The best way of looking at it was to ask if people would feel comfortable using MMO or UCL in a 2 cycle engine mix, and if not why use it in 4-cycle?


2C and 4C engines are different animals. 2C relies on the 2C oil in the gas for 100% of its lubrication; In a 4C, the oil in the fuel is meant to supplement. 2Cs have no sensors or cats; 4Cs do. Their requirements for upper cylinder lube, are very different.

MMO & UCL are spec'd out for 4C applications, with sensors and cat. Why would you trust something designed for a 2C engine, with no computer sensors or a cat? The chemical markup may ruin these components in the long run.

I'd play it safe and use something the manufacturer prescribed explicitly for my application.

 

[TallPaul]

Well I doubt the 2C oil will hurt any sensors, considering the quart of 4C oil already going through it, which is an ounce per every 2 gallons.

 

[Audi Junkie]

We are using it at 1/10th the normal concentration.

Also, for 1st treatment, I say double the dose in order to coat the fuel parts.

 

[gunny1]

Originally Posted By: Jonny Z
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
The best way of looking at it was to ask if people would feel comfortable using MMO or UCL in a 2 cycle engine mix, and if not why use it in 4-cycle?


2C and 4C engines are different animals. 2C relies on the 2C oil in the gas for 100% of its lubrication; In a 4C, the oil in the fuel is meant to supplement. 2Cs have no sensors or cats; 4Cs do. Their requirements for upper cylinder lube, are very different.

MMO & UCL are spec'd out for 4C applications, with sensors and cat. Why would you trust something designed for a 2C engine, with no computer sensors or a cat? The chemical markup may ruin these components in the long run.

I'd play it safe and use something the manufacturer prescribed explicitly for my application.

Keep in mind that not all autos on the road run sensors and cats. There's a bunch of us out here driving classics and hot rods of all kinds that are dependent on an upper lube for the valves and such, once obtained with leaded gasoline. I have been using MMO in the gas, but now may try the 2C top oil added to the gas...

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: TallPaul
In the thread "Most wear occurs at startup," Audi Junkie suggested that use of 2-cycle oil as a fuel additive may help reduce cold start and warm up wear. He also noted some other good qualities of 2-cycle oil that could be beneficial as a fuel additive for 4-cycle engines:

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Now, I leave my car run if it is still cold. After it's warm, I'll shut down if I stop for more than 30 sec to a minute. Once it's warm, it cranks easy and start wear is NOTHING. Also, I think 2 cycle oil in gas can help start up wear. I put a double dose in when temps go down to single digits.

I'm on my 3rd gallon of PZ Marine 2C oil, $10. Real cost is $7 because it replaces a G of gas. At 500:1, it costs me about $.18c to treat 10 gallons, under $.02c a gallon. Used it since new on the Accord. To break-even, I need an extra 2 miles out of that 10 gallons, or 300 miles driving. 1% gain is a reasonable goal from the entire automobile system.

It's not just break-even, because the 2C has other fuel additives, etc...it just improves the fuel. It protects the fuel system from alcohols too. Anyway, I think I get that 1% and more. Engine definately runs nicer. Excellent for track vehicles.

It's tough to justify spending extra money for fuel, but I think this is a winnner. I'd love to see a UOA of a 2C user. Kinda off-topic, but as a cold weather start wear protector...I think it is a total hit.


Valvoline website info for their Multi Purpose 2-Cycle Oil:
Quote:
Use where an SAE 30, 40 or 50 grade is specified
Protects against piston deposits and scuffing for better engine performance

Protects against wear and corrosion

Keeps spark plugs and exhaust ports clean

Provides rust protection during storage

Is pre-diluted and tinted blue

Provides excellent performance in lawn mowers, chain saws, string trimmers, outboard engines, jet skis, motorcycles and snow blowers


Seems that this stuff would not only help lube the rings during cold start and warm up, but also would help prevent rust during prolonged periods on non use, and would help keep the plugs and valves clean. Seems like a winning situation.

Of course I would run at Audi Junkie's recommended 1 in 500 ratio.

On the other hand, would I be better off with an equal concentration of Schaeffer's Neutra 131?
I think we are reading into something we do not understand anything about .

 

[Loobed]

Originally Posted By: Jonny Z
Why would you trust something designed for a 2C engine, with no computer sensors or a cat? The chemical markup may ruin these components in the long run.



Some 2 strokes have cats and computers.

http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/941786

http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=603775

 

[TallPaul]

Thaks Loobed. BTW, there seem to be several above who have been doing this long term with no apparent detrimental effects.

I just dumped a 1 in 250 mix into the F150. We'll see how she runs.

 

[SecondMonkey]

Keep in mind pretty much all engines, especially old ones, burn their crankcase oil, and that doesn't effect cats or sensors. I would say that 2 cycle oil is much cleaner to burn in your engine than 10w30.

 

[mechtech2]

Also, the 2 stroke oil DOES produce power when burned.
It is not useless in this respect.

 

[TallPaul]

Okay, I just called Valvoline again. Got a different tech.

Q: I see you list four different types of 2-cycle oil. What are the differences among them?

A: (in a southern drawl): Basically the front label.

Also told me they are dropping the outboard version. Anyhow, I have 1:250 mix in the Aerostar and the F150. I wonder if that is not better than 1:500 that was recommended above? More lube is better. I'll put it in the motorhome too. Let's see, 55 gallon tank (don't even ask the fillup cost!), would take nearly a quart.

Well, this gives me a new oil buying quest. I can easily stock up a couple cases of this stuff.

 

[TallPaul]

Ooh, Ooh, Ooh, Ooh, Ooh...

I just had a wonderful thought. If they are discontinuing the outboard version, we should soon find it on clearance.

Yaaaaaaa-hooooooooooooooooo!

I have a mission now. Stock up to overflowing. I can hardly wait!

 

[Eddie]

At a 500 to 1 ratio I need to add ~2.5 Oz per 10 gallons of fuel. This seems like a reasonable ratio for a 4 cycle gas engine? With several 2 cycle oil types, what type of 2 cycle oil would you consider the best? TCW 11, TCW 3, snow mobile 2c oil, 2c motor cycle oil and on and on. Ed