This anything but scientific but we have an '11 and '17 Camry. I've done 2 (Maxlife) drain and fills on the '11 (93)k and none on the'17 (29k). We're in Colorado and the 17 has much harsher downshifts than the '11. Could be slight changes between the years but engine/trannie same in both. I'm buying into Maxlife is synthetic and WS perhaps not. It sounds like many have used Maxlife with success in Toyotas. When I'm at Walmart for oil it's easy to pick up the trans fluid. I think drain and fills with WS is a good thing to do as well. Transmissions are ridiculously expensive. It's a good thing to maintain them.
Toyota ATF WS
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Originally Posted by Ed_Flecko
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I agree. Some people sneer at the Toyota WS and I've read some people who think it's a poor quality product. To those people I say, "Well...it must not be a pretty good product if it's used in a $90K+ Lexus".
Ed
so just because it is used in a Lexus means it is good fluid?
Oh, wait, it is the same transmission in a Toyota that is 1/3 the price. What does cost of the vehicle have to do with quality of the fluid?
many posts here and other Toyota/Lexus/Scion forums with issues with WS fluid.
It will last the lifetime of the transmission. Just how long is the lifetime?
Now is it a problem with the WS fluid, specific transmission or transmission/engine combo, or driver, no idea. WS does work well for many, and I agree if you are changing the fluid in any transmission you will get longer life out of it, and WS will meet the spec, since it is the spec.
I personally noticed better* shifting in my Scion when I did my first drain and fill @ 30,000 miles using Maxlife.
@ 50,000 miles I drained it again as well as changed the internal filter. I did not notice much of a change in shift quality this time (but not having issues with it anyway).
* better in that before, shifting felt slow and sloppy at times, after Maxlife, shifts were firmer (but not harsh) and I like it.
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I agree. Some people sneer at the Toyota WS and I've read some people who think it's a poor quality product. To those people I say, "Well...it must not be a pretty good product if it's used in a $90K+ Lexus".
Ed
so just because it is used in a Lexus means it is good fluid?
Oh, wait, it is the same transmission in a Toyota that is 1/3 the price. What does cost of the vehicle have to do with quality of the fluid?
many posts here and other Toyota/Lexus/Scion forums with issues with WS fluid.
It will last the lifetime of the transmission. Just how long is the lifetime?
Now is it a problem with the WS fluid, specific transmission or transmission/engine combo, or driver, no idea. WS does work well for many, and I agree if you are changing the fluid in any transmission you will get longer life out of it, and WS will meet the spec, since it is the spec.
I personally noticed better* shifting in my Scion when I did my first drain and fill @ 30,000 miles using Maxlife.
@ 50,000 miles I drained it again as well as changed the internal filter. I did not notice much of a change in shift quality this time (but not having issues with it anyway).
* better in that before, shifting felt slow and sloppy at times, after Maxlife, shifts were firmer (but not harsh) and I like it.
Shifting like a dream here with AISIN AFW+ WS compatible synthetic fluid on my FJ Cruiser and Highace, both had total drain and fill done. With factory fill the shift was never ever this smooth. I have also installed oil coolers on both vehicles.
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by MaximaGuy
Originally Posted by Chris142
IMO Maxlife and Dex6 are a better choice than the ws fluid.
How so and based on what do you claim such a bold stmt
Dunno about Dex6, but Maxlife is a synthetic.
In my opinion, synthetics are better than conventional oils.
I use it in my '01 Tundra and have used it in Nissans, Toyotas and Hondas.
This is not to say WS is not of sufficient quality.
Just my 2 cents.
Depends on application.
VW used full synthetics in their DSG transmissions in the beginning. They realized that semi-synthetic fluid actually works better for that application. Though, change interval depending on model is between 40-60k.
Originally Posted by MaximaGuy
Originally Posted by Chris142
IMO Maxlife and Dex6 are a better choice than the ws fluid.
How so and based on what do you claim such a bold stmt
Dunno about Dex6, but Maxlife is a synthetic.
In my opinion, synthetics are better than conventional oils.
I use it in my '01 Tundra and have used it in Nissans, Toyotas and Hondas.
This is not to say WS is not of sufficient quality.
Just my 2 cents.
Depends on application.
VW used full synthetics in their DSG transmissions in the beginning. They realized that semi-synthetic fluid actually works better for that application. Though, change interval depending on model is between 40-60k.
Originally Posted by NH73
What makes WS much different than other ATF?
Kinematic viscosity at low temps for one, even Aisin's own fully synthetic WS Compatible fluid approaches Toyota IV spec than WS.
What makes WS much different than other ATF?
Kinematic viscosity at low temps for one, even Aisin's own fully synthetic WS Compatible fluid approaches Toyota IV spec than WS.
Originally Posted by NH73
What makes WS much different than other ATF?
Nothing.
It is typical semi-synthetic LV fluid. However, with manufacturers fluids there is always a chance that manufacturer during testing realized certain issues that could be addressed with fluid and certain additives. Toyota transmissions are generally designed as "lazy." Meaning, they are purposely design to operate below its peak performance as cars are not designed for such use. I have same transmission in Sienna and Tiguan. Two different animals. In Tiguan it is programmed aggressively, in SIenna, when you shift from D to S4, and then immediately to S3, one could take a sip of coffee, light up cigaret and then something would happen. Their 8 speed is designed similar way, lazy, compared to other applications. So, fluid is appropriate for that design, that performance.
I am doing fluid next month. I will use WS (being delivered tomorrow). For me, more important is regular change as well as filter change, than whether it is WS or Maxlife. However, as I said there is always a chance that Toyota knows something that other don't. VW ATF supplier for 6 speed and 8 speed is Pentosin. Maybe that transmission behaves differently in combination with VW engines and drivetrain in general. So VW wants certain type. Who knows? Why risking? Also, why mixing fluids? I will do fluid drop and replace, with no flush.
What makes WS much different than other ATF?
Nothing.
It is typical semi-synthetic LV fluid. However, with manufacturers fluids there is always a chance that manufacturer during testing realized certain issues that could be addressed with fluid and certain additives. Toyota transmissions are generally designed as "lazy." Meaning, they are purposely design to operate below its peak performance as cars are not designed for such use. I have same transmission in Sienna and Tiguan. Two different animals. In Tiguan it is programmed aggressively, in SIenna, when you shift from D to S4, and then immediately to S3, one could take a sip of coffee, light up cigaret and then something would happen. Their 8 speed is designed similar way, lazy, compared to other applications. So, fluid is appropriate for that design, that performance.
I am doing fluid next month. I will use WS (being delivered tomorrow). For me, more important is regular change as well as filter change, than whether it is WS or Maxlife. However, as I said there is always a chance that Toyota knows something that other don't. VW ATF supplier for 6 speed and 8 speed is Pentosin. Maybe that transmission behaves differently in combination with VW engines and drivetrain in general. So VW wants certain type. Who knows? Why risking? Also, why mixing fluids? I will do fluid drop and replace, with no flush.
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Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by NH73
What makes WS much different than other ATF?
I am doing fluid next month. I will use WS (being delivered tomorrow).
You are a great proponent of non-OEM fluids, what spooked you to preach this sermon!!!
Originally Posted by NH73
What makes WS much different than other ATF?
I am doing fluid next month. I will use WS (being delivered tomorrow).
You are a great proponent of non-OEM fluids, what spooked you to preach this sermon!!!
Originally Posted by MaximaGuy
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by NH73
What makes WS much different than other ATF?
I am doing fluid next month. I will use WS (being delivered tomorrow).
You are a great proponent of non-OEM fluids, what spooked you to preach this sermon!!!
I am not sure I am great proponent of non-OEM fluids.
In BMW I used ZF6, in VW Tiguan I used VW ATF, in VW CC used VW DSG fluid etc.
Main reason is that I do not want to mix fluid. I do not want to do flush, and do not have time to do 3-4 drains.
Though, in transfer case and rear differential I will go Redline 75W85. Let's see how that elixir will work.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by NH73
What makes WS much different than other ATF?
I am doing fluid next month. I will use WS (being delivered tomorrow).
You are a great proponent of non-OEM fluids, what spooked you to preach this sermon!!!
I am not sure I am great proponent of non-OEM fluids.
In BMW I used ZF6, in VW Tiguan I used VW ATF, in VW CC used VW DSG fluid etc.
Main reason is that I do not want to mix fluid. I do not want to do flush, and do not have time to do 3-4 drains.
Though, in transfer case and rear differential I will go Redline 75W85. Let's see how that elixir will work.
Originally Posted by NH73
Is WS a license or spec or not?
I do not think it is either.
Is WS a license or spec or not?
I do not think it is either.
Originally Posted by NH73
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by NH73
Is WS a license or spec or not?
I do not think it is either.
Would that explain why no lubricant co. says there products meet WS, like Dexron?
It's all in their wording. They can claim meets OEM all they want. Registered or Certified is another matter, the factory or designated third party has to sign off on that claim.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by NH73
Is WS a license or spec or not?
I do not think it is either.
Would that explain why no lubricant co. says there products meet WS, like Dexron?
It's all in their wording. They can claim meets OEM all they want. Registered or Certified is another matter, the factory or designated third party has to sign off on that claim.
As long its low viscosity with a Kinematic number of less than 7 it meets WS spec, in fact AISIN's own synthetic AFW+ kinematic viscosity is around seven and its listed as meeting WS spec. In fact the early A750 ran on Toyota type IV atf.
Originally Posted by HangFire
Originally Posted by NH73
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by NH73
Is WS a license or spec or not?
I do not think it is either.
Would that explain why no lubricant co. says there products meet WS, like Dexron?
It's all in their wording. They can claim meets OEM all they want. Registered or Certified is another matter, the factory or designated third party has to sign off on that claim.
So is there no one that would sign off on WS?
Originally Posted by NH73
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by NH73
Is WS a license or spec or not?
I do not think it is either.
Would that explain why no lubricant co. says there products meet WS, like Dexron?
It's all in their wording. They can claim meets OEM all they want. Registered or Certified is another matter, the factory or designated third party has to sign off on that claim.
So is there no one that would sign off on WS?
Originally Posted by NH73
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by NH73
Is WS a license or spec or not?
I do not think it is either.
Would that explain why no lubricant co. says there products meet WS, like Dexron?
WS is not specification in manner like European manufacturers have specifications or some American.
Toyota does not have approval process for WS.
IMO, it is an attempt by Toyota to make their product (car) as easy to maintain as possible. That is one of the major appeals of Toyota vehicles. Transmissions are also "dumbed" down too. But, it could be in certain instances double sword as there is no clarity whether aftermarket fluid is compatible and how? So, you have to trust fluid manufacturer. I think having approval for WS (or whatever Toyota wants to call it) would make things easier.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by NH73
Is WS a license or spec or not?
I do not think it is either.
Would that explain why no lubricant co. says there products meet WS, like Dexron?
WS is not specification in manner like European manufacturers have specifications or some American.
Toyota does not have approval process for WS.
IMO, it is an attempt by Toyota to make their product (car) as easy to maintain as possible. That is one of the major appeals of Toyota vehicles. Transmissions are also "dumbed" down too. But, it could be in certain instances double sword as there is no clarity whether aftermarket fluid is compatible and how? So, you have to trust fluid manufacturer. I think having approval for WS (or whatever Toyota wants to call it) would make things easier.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by NH73
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by NH73
Is WS a license or spec or not?
I do not think it is either.
Would that explain why no lubricant co. says there products meet WS, like Dexron?
WS is not specification in manner like European manufacturers have specifications or some American.
Toyota does not have approval process for WS.
IMO, it is an attempt by Toyota to make their product (car) as easy to maintain as possible. That is one of the major appeals of Toyota vehicles. Transmissions are also "dumbed" down too. But, it could be in certain instances double sword as there is no clarity whether aftermarket fluid is compatible and how? So, you have to trust fluid manufacturer. I think having approval for WS (or whatever Toyota wants to call it) would make things easier.
My thoughts exactly. But like all manufacturers, they make it sound like you need to use there stuff. This has created some confusion at first, but after having some questions answered, this was my conclusion. But I agree with you, it does leave us figuring out, what works and doesn't. There appears to be good options out there that other were successful in using. It also appears that most newest LV ATF will work.
Originally Posted by NH73
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by NH73
Is WS a license or spec or not?
I do not think it is either.
Would that explain why no lubricant co. says there products meet WS, like Dexron?
WS is not specification in manner like European manufacturers have specifications or some American.
Toyota does not have approval process for WS.
IMO, it is an attempt by Toyota to make their product (car) as easy to maintain as possible. That is one of the major appeals of Toyota vehicles. Transmissions are also "dumbed" down too. But, it could be in certain instances double sword as there is no clarity whether aftermarket fluid is compatible and how? So, you have to trust fluid manufacturer. I think having approval for WS (or whatever Toyota wants to call it) would make things easier.
My thoughts exactly. But like all manufacturers, they make it sound like you need to use there stuff. This has created some confusion at first, but after having some questions answered, this was my conclusion. But I agree with you, it does leave us figuring out, what works and doesn't. There appears to be good options out there that other were successful in using. It also appears that most newest LV ATF will work.
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The holy grail fluid here is MaxLife and while I'm not a fan of it, it does work on Toyota applications calling for WS fluid.
The Japanese and European OEMs are tight-lipped out their fluid specs - but all the Japanese OEMs base their fluid specs off the JASO M315-1A/2A standards. A Toyota engineer said "superior type ATF" meeting that spec is OK, OEM fluid is best.
It's not so much the base fluids and other additives in ATF that are important - the friction modifiers are important.
The Japanese and European OEMs are tight-lipped out their fluid specs - but all the Japanese OEMs base their fluid specs off the JASO M315-1A/2A standards. A Toyota engineer said "superior type ATF" meeting that spec is OK, OEM fluid is best.
It's not so much the base fluids and other additives in ATF that are important - the friction modifiers are important.
Originally Posted by NH73
What makes WS much different than other ATF?
The only thing special is that Toyota calibrate their transmission / engine timing, shifting, power etc with their own fluid.
To overly simplify things, let's say WS is about 3% off in a certain spec (say viscosity or dynamic friction at a particular shift) when new compare to Dexron, and then Maxlife is 2% off in the opposite direction, this makes Maxlife 5% off when new. Now 150k down the road (assuming it is a lifetime fill in a car designed for 150k miles), this 5% may become 10% between old WS and old Maxlife in warm climate, and 25% off in cold climate in Alaska.
Let's say your transmission is designed to adapt to the change between new and old WS, it may tolerate 10% off in warm climate, but it may not tolerate 25% off in cold climate (maybe not breaking the transmission but it may shift harsh). It would be up to Valvoline to do the testing and guarantee for it, it is possible that they didn't test all the odd ball corner case, like a turbo direct inject trailer queen during a heat storm in Death Valley in a 24 hour Lemon). Maybe WS would fail too, maybe not, we don't have the info.
Personally, I think if you are changing fluid and you are in a moderate climate, driving moderately, you are fine. I'd be a bit careful if I'm in odd location doing odd stuff with odd driving condition.
What makes WS much different than other ATF?
The only thing special is that Toyota calibrate their transmission / engine timing, shifting, power etc with their own fluid.
To overly simplify things, let's say WS is about 3% off in a certain spec (say viscosity or dynamic friction at a particular shift) when new compare to Dexron, and then Maxlife is 2% off in the opposite direction, this makes Maxlife 5% off when new. Now 150k down the road (assuming it is a lifetime fill in a car designed for 150k miles), this 5% may become 10% between old WS and old Maxlife in warm climate, and 25% off in cold climate in Alaska.
Let's say your transmission is designed to adapt to the change between new and old WS, it may tolerate 10% off in warm climate, but it may not tolerate 25% off in cold climate (maybe not breaking the transmission but it may shift harsh). It would be up to Valvoline to do the testing and guarantee for it, it is possible that they didn't test all the odd ball corner case, like a turbo direct inject trailer queen during a heat storm in Death Valley in a 24 hour Lemon). Maybe WS would fail too, maybe not, we don't have the info.
Personally, I think if you are changing fluid and you are in a moderate climate, driving moderately, you are fine. I'd be a bit careful if I'm in odd location doing odd stuff with odd driving condition.
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