Changing oil less often is better for your engine - SAE

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by Donald
Taken decent care of, something else will cause the car to end up at the boneyard other than the engine. Rust would be a big one. Depreciation is also one. When the car is 15 years old a major transmission problem might be reason to dump the car, maybe to the boneyard.



Indeed. The days of keeping vehicles on the road for over 200k miles are coming to an end. Ability/cost to repair are going to become too difficult/expensive.

 

[StevieC]

I'm going to try for 1/2 million with my Caravan. My dad's is at 300K on conventional oil so 500K on a synthetic should be possible. His was also heavily loaded for the first 2/3rd's of it's life when I drove it as a fleet vehicle and mine just has me in it for the most part. And then if I get to 500K I'll try for 1M.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

Originally Posted by Donald
Taken decent care of, something else will cause the car to end up at the boneyard other than the engine. Rust would be a big one. Depreciation is also one. When the car is 15 years old a major transmission problem might be reason to dump the car, maybe to the boneyard.



Despite that the average age of cars on the road continues to go up. I think the fleet will age a lot in the coming years.

 

[Smokescreen]

I am so glad all of my engines are port injected and have an OLM. As the OLM is very reliable and even somewhat conservative, I never have to worry about shortchanging or extending intervals, I just change it when the monitor says to.

 

[Leo99]

Originally Posted by SeaJay
Originally Posted by Brigadier
Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by PimTac
Trying to fit a blanket idea on multiple situations never works out. Getting people off of the every 3k oci is one thing but pushing longer oci on some of today's engines is not a good idea.


UOA's with TBN/TAN is a good way to gauge what is safe or following the conservative OLM's with a high quality oil. But yeah I agree 3K OCI needs to go even 6K is more than fine with just about every engine out there today.

I just found it interesting that there is less friction and wear as an oil ages a bit than with fresh oil.



Right, that is why my owner's manual recommends 3750 oci for severe service which just about 90% of BITOGER's fall under. But hey, what do they know?

Go ahead with your extended OCI, we will wait for your post on your bad timing chains on your GDI engine due to the soot floating around in your oil for so long.


More like 99.9% of BItOGers believe they require severe service if I can count.



It's a badge people want wear to justify their decisions.

 

[StevieC]

Here is what soot looks like on a Lab Report so you can monitor if it's a concern for your GDI.
(towards the bottom)

 

[Brigadier]

Question is if that is traditional soot or the new type of ultra fine GDI soot? Does Dyson specify?

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by Brigadier
Question is if that is traditional soot or the new type of ultra fine GDI soot? Does Dyson specify?

I asked him as I was going to send in a sample from my Toyota before I made the decision to get rid of it and he said that it looks at soot particles of all sizes.

The engine in the vehicle above UOA is a PFI system so it would have little to no soot but in a GDI engine that number would be considerably higher.

What I like about his analysis is the highly calibrated lab spec and that he takes into account the engine in use and will answer as many questions in real-time with you as you want about the report. I have sent him many questions both right after getting the report and months down the road as I had a thought about something and there is always a speedy reply.

Not sure if you know but he worked on the Restore Blue with Valvoline and Cummins to come up with that formulation. He's a pretty smart guy. He has also fought many OE's in lawsuits where warranty was being denied and helped customers win.

 

[yeti]

Originally Posted by Kjmack
Jeesh i get so tired of people fighting about everything from best cookie to Conservative to Liberal . I dont even watch TV anymore because its all hate all the time . I get on a oil site to see whats new and great and its the same BS , personal attacks . Im going to watch a puppy video on youtube .


I don't see any personal attacks on this thread, but there are a few regular posters that will argue, just ... because. they can even be shown to be wrong, but are too boneheaded to admit it. remember, this the internet.
one has to learn to laugh about all the goofiness on the 'net.
if you're talking about the best cookie, p.m. nick, from the desert.he makes cookies on his instrument panel. it would be nice to try a couple of them.
take care.

 

[Brigadier]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by Brigadier
Question is if that is traditional soot or the new type of ultra fine GDI soot? Does Dyson specify?

I asked him as I was going to send in a sample from my Toyota before I made the decision to get rid of it and he said that it looks at soot particles of all sizes.

The engine in the vehicle above UOA is a PFI system so it would have little to no soot but in a GDI engine that number would be considerably higher.

What I like about his analysis is the highly calibrated lab spec and that he takes into account the engine in use and will answer as many questions in real-time with you as you want about the report. I have sent him many questions both right after getting the report and months down the road as I had a thought about something and there is always a speedy reply.

Not sure if you know but he worked on the Restore Blue with Valvoline and Cummins to come up with that formulation. He's a pretty smart guy. He has also fought many OE's in lawsuits where warranty was being denied and helped customers win.



Next question is what % of GDI soot is too much? Has that been established yet?

 

[StevieC]

I would run the manufacturer OCI for the first UOA and see what soot accumulates and then make a decision from there or rely on experts like Terry to guide you.

Terry focuses a lot on combustion dynamic and tweaking it to reduce soot formation and to increase fuel economy as well as lubricant usable life so I would heavily lean toward using his service at least for GDI / TGDI engines.

He found an issue with my Journey even before it showed up on my scan tool as being the coolant temperature sensor. The sensor wasn't accurate and feeding the ECM false values throwing off the combustion dynamic and as a result started causing the engine to run a bit richer and it showed up in the UOA's a while before it set a check engine light.

Evidence can be seen in the water test above where it kept getting higher and higher and it was caused by this sensor. Changed the sensor and the number dropped well below the allowable 500 limit (I think like 100) which is considered "good" and fuel dilution dropped to 0.

 

[GZRider]

I doubt this study involved any oil pressure actuated variable valve timing and variable event and lift systems like the 06-10? VANOS (shivers at the thought) or Nissan VVEL/CVTC or Toyota VVT-I (Avalon/IS/GS version) that all have been charged with excessive cruelty to oils in the past.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted by Brigadier


There is some evidence that the more used your oil is(as opposed to new or newer oil), that influences LSPI negatively. Thin oil, you say? There is some evidence that lower viscosity affects LSPI negatively. Synthetic oil, you say? There is some evidence for Group I-IV oils, the higher the Group, the more LSPI. These three are all secondary, or tertiary, but still evident.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...load/Number/4138/filename/gdisootoil.JPG


This contradict another study (from a Korean researcher) I've seen that conclude Group IV (and frequent change) actually reduces intake deposit.

Using 0w30 to compare with 7.5w30 (what the heck is a 7.5w?) is an automatic fail to me, the noack is different and the additive chemistry is different as well.

Seriously, just because someone has a power point slide on the internet doesn't make it the only truth. I don't think you should start making blanket statement just with that. Base oil group will likely be just one thing out of many.

 

[Linctex]

Originally Posted by Brigadier

How will an oil be good for continued use if it is full of timing chain destroying GDI soot that is not reported in the UOA? Also, GDI engines produce fuel dilution, enough to potentially remove your precious boundry layer lubrication. Fuel/ethanol are solvents. Not lubricants.

But I am sure Amsoil will have your back.


You are REALLY blowing this out of proportion!

Why don't you provide some evidence?

Soot particles are almost always too small to do any damage - the boundary layer is much thicker than they are.

Fuel dilution is only a serious problem once it exceeds a certain %

 

[FCD]

It IS true that the additive packages in oils, specially the antiwear additives are at their best once the oil has been in the engine for a while.
Oil filters have also been found to filtrate better after they have seen some use than when they are new.

However on the whole, atleast where i live people maintain their cars very poorly.
I hear engines with rod knocks, heavy valvetrain ticking, every single day.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Here is what soot looks like on a Lab Report so you can monitor if it's a concern for your GDI.
(towards the bottom)

Is this the basic or advanced UOA?

 

[Brigadier]

Originally Posted by Linctex
Originally Posted by Brigadier

How will an oil be good for continued use if it is full of timing chain destroying GDI soot that is not reported in the UOA? Also, GDI engines produce fuel dilution, enough to potentially remove your precious boundry layer lubrication. Fuel/ethanol are solvents. Not lubricants.

But I am sure Amsoil will have your back.


You are REALLY blowing this out of proportion!

Why don't you provide some evidence?

Soot particles are almost always too small to do any damage - the boundary layer is much thicker than they are.

Fuel dilution is only a serious problem once it exceeds a certain %



So, there was no need for d1G2 oils to protect timing chains? Got it. Boy, GM is dumb.

 

[gfh77665]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by gfh77665
When I saw "Las Vegas" I stopped reading. Probably a Taxi Cab study. Not applicable to the way vehicles are typically used in 99% of all other cases across North America.


Get a UOA. Then it's 100% applicable to your situation.

Not interested in a UOA. Also not interested in unsolicited advice.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Not sure if this was posted here yet but I did try to search first.

https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2007-01-4133/

Quote
The Effect of Oil Drain Interval on Valvetrain Friction and Wear 2007-01-4133
Engine oils are subjected to a series of industry standard engine dynamometer tests to measure their wear protection capability, sludge and varnish formation tendencies, and fuel efficiency among several other performance attributes before they are approved for use in customer engines. However, these performance attributes are measured at the end of tests and therefore, do not provide any information on how the properties have changed during the tests. In one of our previous studies it was observed that engine oil samples collected from fleet vehicles after 12,000 mile drain interval showed 10-15 % lower friction and more importantly, an order of magnitude lower wear rate than those of fresh oils. It was also observed that the composition of the tribochemical films formed was quite different on the surface tested with the drain oils from those formed with fresh oils. The objective of this investigation is to demonstrate how the friction and wear performance changed with oil drain intervals. A fleet of three vehicles was run in Las Vegas and oil samples were collected at various drain intervals from 3000 miles to 15000 miles. As in the previous study, the results showed that the aged engine oils provide lower friction and much improved wear protection capability. These improvements were observed as early as the 3000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15000 mile drain interval. The composition of tribochemical films formed on the surface with the 3000 mile drain interval is similar to that formed with the 12000 mile drain interval as seen before. These findings could be an enabler for achieving longer drain interval although several other factors must to be considered.


I underlined another bit that's pertinent...

Per the paper, they took samples of oil from the taxi cabs, and subjected them the a test in a simulated valvetrain.

Entirely predictably, the already degraded oil filmed tribofilms more rapidly, and reduced wear and friction...when introduced to the test apparatus.

That doesn't say that leaving the oil in longer, with an already established tribofilm will result in less friction and wear...just that the used oil introduced to the test apparatus did.

As to the "other factors"
First test oil had a TBN of 3.2, TAN of 7.6, and had thickened from 8.6 to 15.9 Cst...it was clearly unserviceable at around the half way mark...but yes, it performed well when introduced to the test rig.

Second oil thickened markedly also, (8.7-13.3, TAN/TBN crossover between 5,00 and 7,500, had 150um of Fe at 5,000 miles...which disappeared (into sludge ???) by the end of the test.

Third oil, 8.3 to 17.1 Cst.TAN/TBN crossover between 7,500 and 10,000 miles. and also played "hide the iron" towards the end of the test.

It showed that fresh oil on a fresh shim produced markedly more wear than either used oil on a used shim, of fresh oil on a used shim (already established tribofilm), with used oil on a used shim being slightly lower than the "oil change" example.

Not an attack Stevie, but this paper has been the most misrepresented paper on the site, and not many people have anted up the $25 to read it...heck, CATERHAM waxed lyrically on how it showed reduced engine wear clearly due to the thinning of the oil, which made it lubricate better...a posit that he defended vehemently, when it was diametrically opposite to what's clearly stated in the paper.

So how do I use the paper ?

I change the oil one weekend, leaving what's in the filter...then the filter a few weeks later. The filter introduces "activated" oil to the new charge, and takes out any grit in the new oil (it's there), while the filter is working at it's best (filtes more junk the more junk that's in it).

Am prepared to sell "oil pre-conditioner" by the litre to any interested parties

 

[dave1251]

The only thing I learned is most car owners around here to not drive under the severe service category.