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Is it possible to build a 0w40 with no VII? #4681419
03/01/18 11:58 AM
03/01/18 11:58 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,523
Oakville, Ontario
Patman Offline OP
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Patman  Offline OP
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,523
Oakville, Ontario
If you use a very good base oil could a 0w40 be built that uses no viscosity index improvers? I believe the original GC 0w30 (which was almost a 0w40) used little or no VII in it, thanks to it's super trick base oil.


2018 Corvette, 9k, M1 ESP Formula 5w30 & NAPA Gold
2006 Civic EX Coupe, 149k, PUP 5w20 & Fram Ultra
2010 BMW 328i X-Drive,113k, GC 0w40 & Fram Ultra

Re: Is it possible to build a 0w40 with no VII? [Re: Patman] #4681433
03/01/18 12:11 PM
03/01/18 12:11 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,459
N.H, U.S.A.
ARCOgraphite Offline
ARCOgraphite  Offline

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N.H, U.S.A.
IDK

A PAO Blend of high and low visc PAO might meet pour but not mrv, so likely NO.

IIRC PP of long chain PAO are much higher than the 4sct(KV100) at typ below -80

Havent "bench blended" with PAO plus AN and POA blends smile



Last edited by ARCOgraphite; 03/01/18 12:19 PM.

2019 VW Jetta S,6M OCI#0 1136mi-Castrol Edge Prof? VW508+OE Filter; '17 Subaru Crosstrek CVT OC#6 43467mi-Valvoline Adv 0w20 + SOA Filter
Re: Is it possible to build a 0w40 with no VII? [Re: Patman] #4681442
03/01/18 12:25 PM
03/01/18 12:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,341
Pennsylbammyvania
dailydriver Offline
dailydriver  Offline

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Pennsylbammyvania
MPT 30K 0W-40 claims little to almost no VII added to their 0W-40 formulation.
I actually spoke to their owner about this.

Due to their TOTALLY PAO/POE base stocks used (except for the proverbial 'carrier oils' of course wink ), he said they had to add just the tiniest little bit to the 0W-40, but NONE whatsoever added to all of the other weights they offer.
This is also WHY their VIs are somewhat low compared to most else out there on the boutique market.

But, I would be VERY hesitant to use their oils in a modern GDI setup due to the very high calcium content (almost 2300 ppm!), as well as an almost race oil level of ZDDP. frown
(Curious; does Chevy/GM offer a walnut shell blasting cleaner service for the current GDI LTxes? Ford does NOT, so when that is needed, I must go to an aftermarket 'tuner' to get this done.)


2016 Ford Fiesta ST 14K miles
Ravenol DXG 5W-30
Amsoil Ea15K51 filter
Ravenol MTF-2 in the IB6 transaxle
Re: Is it possible to build a 0w40 with no VII? [Re: Patman] #4681532
03/01/18 02:49 PM
03/01/18 02:49 PM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 686
NJ, USA
MotoTribologist Offline
MotoTribologist  Offline

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With a PAO and oil soluble PAG blend I bet I could make a 0W-40 without VI improvers. However, I wouldn't recommend putting it into an engine.

Re: Is it possible to build a 0w40 with no VII? [Re: MotoTribologist] #4681544
03/01/18 03:15 PM
03/01/18 03:15 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,523
Oakville, Ontario
Patman Offline OP
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Patman  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
With a PAO and oil soluble PAG blend I bet I could make a 0W-40 without VI improvers. However, I wouldn't recommend putting it into an engine.


Why is that?

Re: Is it possible to build a 0w40 with no VII? [Re: Patman] #4681634
03/01/18 05:53 PM
03/01/18 05:53 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 39,141
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Online content
OVERKILL  Online Content

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 39,141
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Patman
If you use a very good base oil could a 0w40 be built that uses no viscosity index improvers? I believe the original GC 0w30 (which was almost a 0w40) used little or no VII in it, thanks to it's super trick base oil.


The original GC was, like the original M1 0w-40, mostly PAO. This was also the case for some of the earlier formulas of the Castrol 0w-40.

The ones that are majority PAO will still have some VII in them, but it won't be a ton IMHO. You can, as ARCO noted, probably knock MRV out of the park with PAO, it's hitting the CCS target that is difficult, so you end up using a lighter base and a touch of VII to bring the visc up.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT - Castrol Edge 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: Is it possible to build a 0w40 with no VII? [Re: Patman] #4681646
03/01/18 06:07 PM
03/01/18 06:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 39,141
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Online content
OVERKILL  Online Content

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Ontario, Canada
Speaking just from a base oil perspective, which isn't really practical, but for the sake of calculation, it's easier, we could try and target the 12.9cSt of M1 0w-40 "FS" using a PAO base blend of the following:

1. SpectraSyn 8 - 8cSt @ 100C, 48cSt @ 40C, MRV of 16,200cP @ -40C, CCS of 4,800cP. 4.1% NOACK,
2. SpectraSyn 40 - 39cSt @ 100C, 396cSt @ 40C, MRV of 102,000cP @ -26C, CCS N/A, NOACK N/A

Using the Widman visc calc, to hit our 12.9cSt target we'd need 66.3% of SpectraSyn 8 and 33.6% of SpectraSyn 40. We could use an even heavier base and move that around a bit but the resulting product of the above blend would have the following characteristics:

100C Visc: 12.9cSt
40C Visc: 90.3cSt
VI: 141

And it is quite possible for it to be below the MRV limit at -40C. It would fail CCS though.


A blend using SpectraSyn 100 instead would put us at roughly 77% SpectraSyn 8, which might yield more favourable low temp performance, but I'm not an expert so I could be completely off-base there, LOL


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT - Castrol Edge 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: Is it possible to build a 0w40 with no VII? [Re: Patman] #4681952
03/02/18 05:18 AM
03/02/18 05:18 AM
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Posts: 1,330
Europe
SonofJoe Offline
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Europe
If you omitted any sort of DI pack, you could probably make a 0W40 with very little VII.

However as soon as you add the DI pack (typically 10%-ish of any engine oil), then your need for VII is going to ratchet up very quickly even with the very best of base oils.

Re: Is it possible to build a 0w40 with no VII? [Re: Patman] #4681959
03/02/18 05:54 AM
03/02/18 05:54 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,930
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Online content
FordCapriDriver  Online Content

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I'd say no.
Don't even most 15W-40 Conventional oils have some VII's in them? ( Both HDEO and PCMO 15W-40s )


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.
1988 Ford Escort XR3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.


Re: Is it possible to build a 0w40 with no VII? [Re: FordCapriDriver] #4681978
03/02/18 07:12 AM
03/02/18 07:12 AM
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SonofJoe Offline
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Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
I'd say no.
Don't even most 15W-40 Conventional oils have some VII's in them? ( Both HDEO and PCMO 15W-40s )


A typical European 15W40 Group I/II PCMO will contain around 7.5%-ish of liquid OCP VII. A 15W40 HDDO will contain a tad more on account of its notionally higher Ashless content.

Re: Is it possible to build a 0w40 with no VII? [Re: Patman] #4681983
03/02/18 07:23 AM
03/02/18 07:23 AM
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Down Under
SR5 Offline
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Down Under
Without hijacking the thread, what about a 10W40 Group III oil ?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Castrol GTX Ultraclean 15W40 A3/B3 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: Is it possible to build a 0w40 with no VII? [Re: Patman] #4682060
03/02/18 09:42 AM
03/02/18 09:42 AM
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NJ, USA
MotoTribologist Offline
MotoTribologist  Offline

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NJ, USA
Originally Posted By: Patman
Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
With a PAO and oil soluble PAG blend I bet I could make a 0W-40 without VI improvers. However, I wouldn't recommend putting it into an engine.


Why is that?

I'd be worried about seal compatibility, but to be honest, I rarely look as OSPs and I assume they are as picky with seals as regular PAGs are.

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