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Engine teardown with weight comparison? #4639926
01/19/18 01:59 PM
01/19/18 01:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 19
Delco, PA
BullittGT Offline OP
BullittGT  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 19
Delco, PA
Hi. I think this may be the best sub to ask in.

I know it's probably unlikely, but has anyone ever done comparisons of engines that have similar miles that have run different weight oils? For example 3 taxies that went into service in the similar time that ran with 5w-20, 5w-30 and 5w-40 oil in them for their lifetime and compared later to see the wear differences?


Hoping for a 2019/2020 Mustang BULLITT
Current: 2018 Q50 Red Sport 400 AWD
Re: Engine teardown with weight comparison? [Re: BullittGT] #4639927
01/19/18 02:04 PM
01/19/18 02:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 839
CA, USA
paulri Offline
paulri  Offline
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 839
CA, USA
I remember one poster here saying that he worked at a Ford shop (or was he doing training?), and they tore down engines that were running 5w30, and also the newer ones with 5w20. He said that they looked the same, but that the 5w20 ones were cleaner around the pistons.

I'll try to find that thread. Wish me luck. smile


2005 Toyota Sienna LE; 156,000 miles
1998 Honda Civic DX; 202,000 miles
Re: Engine teardown with weight comparison? [Re: BullittGT] #4639933
01/19/18 02:09 PM
01/19/18 02:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 93
Tennessee, United States
ZraHamilton Offline
ZraHamilton  Offline
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 93
Tennessee, United States
Another thing to consider would be fuel economy. It would be hard to find an average fuel economy for an engine's entire life though.

Re: Engine teardown with weight comparison? [Re: BullittGT] #4639939
01/19/18 02:12 PM
01/19/18 02:12 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,093
Saskatchewan, Canada
Johnny2Bad Offline
Johnny2Bad  Offline
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,093
Saskatchewan, Canada
The sample size isn't large enough or controlled enough, usually; you need fleet data.

Best source of readily (web) available data would be public utilities like maybe a State School Bus or Police fleet or (if you can find it) military sources. They do these kinds of things from time to time, and they will have cost-benefit data to go with it, which is what you really want.

There are almost certainly other sources, but the problem is getting the data from private sources, whom might see it as competitive-restricted or proprietary information.


'57 FL Straight 50 wt
'90 Miata 1.8L w/Rotrex Supercharger [Mobil1 0W-40]
'96 Ram 1500 [3.7L Mobil1 0W-20 / 1L 15W-50]
'01 PT Cruiser [Mobil1 0W-40]
Re: Engine teardown with weight comparison? [Re: ZraHamilton] #4639940
01/19/18 02:13 PM
01/19/18 02:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 19
Delco, PA
BullittGT Offline OP
BullittGT  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 19
Delco, PA
I'm sure this will matter to some people, but my main thought is on the long term protection. I don't mind paying a bit more for fuel if it means a little more peace of mind, even if it is only a small amount of peace.


Hoping for a 2019/2020 Mustang BULLITT
Current: 2018 Q50 Red Sport 400 AWD
Re: Engine teardown with weight comparison? [Re: BullittGT] #4639968
01/19/18 02:34 PM
01/19/18 02:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,314
SE British Columbia, Canada
Snagglefoot Offline
Snagglefoot  Offline
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,314
SE British Columbia, Canada
I'm disappointed with the amount of data out there. Surely there must be police garages, or taxi garages that have tried long term tests using different oils. Also, you would think there would be more info from our Universities and colleges. Just downright disappointing.


If you want the job done right......do it yourself.
Re: Engine teardown with weight comparison? [Re: BullittGT] #4639973
01/19/18 02:38 PM
01/19/18 02:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 839
CA, USA
paulri Offline
paulri  Offline
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 839
CA, USA
For what its worth, in the mid 90s, Toyota did some testing with oils that had an HTHS equal to 20 and 30 weight, and found that the 20 weight oils recorded fairly equal engine wear (this was oils with an HTHS of 2.6 and 3.1). They even threw in an oil with 2.4 HTHS and found that in most of their tests, even that oil did well. Unfortunately the text was in Japanese, but the charts showed the results.

Try this link: https://www.beamium.com/v/ZVYVMTDM

The site takes a while to upload the next page when you click on the right arrow, but it does go from one page to the next.

Last edited by paulri; 01/19/18 02:46 PM.

2005 Toyota Sienna LE; 156,000 miles
1998 Honda Civic DX; 202,000 miles
Re: Engine teardown with weight comparison? [Re: BullittGT] #4640035
01/19/18 03:24 PM
01/19/18 03:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,970
MN
oil_film_movies Offline
oil_film_movies  Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,970
MN
BullittGT: Deposit on a Bullit I see. Awesome. Best looking machine.

It does depend on the engine model. Recommended weight in the Owner's Manual is what the engineers know will pass their durability testing, and thats plenty.
The more surface area and the less loading on bearings governs how viscous the oil has to be to provide a non-zero thick oil film. So its engine design as much as anything that governs the question.

5w20 (or 0w20) is all a lot of engines need. I would go up to a 5w30 on an xw20-spec engine if towing or racing in hot weather just to be sure it doesn't thin too much.
Push the video slider to the 1:44 point to see how a 5w20 does very well in a Ford 4.6L engine:

Re: Engine teardown with weight comparison? [Re: oil_film_movies] #4640070
01/19/18 03:56 PM
01/19/18 03:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 1,034
US
JLTD Offline
JLTD  Offline
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 1,034
US
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
BullittGT: Deposit on a Bullit I see. Awesome. Best looking machine.

It does depend on the engine model. Recommended weight in the Owner's Manual is what the engineers know will pass their durability testing, and thats plenty.
The more surface area and the less loading on bearings governs how viscous the oil has to be to provide a non-zero thick oil film. So its engine design as much as anything that governs the question.

5w20 (or 0w20) is all a lot of engines need. I would go up to a 5w30 on an xw20-spec engine if towing or racing in hot weather just to be sure it doesn't thin too much.
Push the video slider to the 1:44 point to see how a 5w20 does very well in a Ford 4.6L engine:


I don't know that I can agree on the part part of your post bolded in italics above; I recall reading on here somewhere that the oil recommendation in the owner's manual is required to be the oil used for CAFE figures, and ONLY the oil grade used for those figures. Seems to me if that's what the government is requiring, then the engineers no longer write the manual in that respect.


edit: there's also a video of the Schaeffer Oil 1,000,000 mile van engine teardown:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDF1zcaxrNU

That engine was super clean and showed no measurable wear either.

I emailed the company (Schaeffer) awhile back, they said that they had used 15w40 diesel oil in the Ford 5.4L gas V8.


I'm a thickie; but a 20 has its place.

I use AMSOIL

Hers: 2008 Jeep Liberty 138k, SS 5w30/Amsoil

His: 2015 4Runner 41k, OE 5w20/Wix

Re: Engine teardown with weight comparison? [Re: paulri] #4640186
01/19/18 05:19 PM
01/19/18 05:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,351
toronto
PeterPolyol Offline
PeterPolyol  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,351
toronto
Originally Posted By: paulri
He said that they looked the same, but that the 5w20 ones were cleaner around the pistons.

Is he suggesting that the straighter oil resulted in cleaner rings? I'm shocked.

Re: Engine teardown with weight comparison? [Re: BullittGT] #4640199
01/19/18 05:29 PM
01/19/18 05:29 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 20,752
Upstate NY
Donald Offline
Donald  Offline
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 20,752
Upstate NY
Consumer Reports did this 10 or 15 years ago.


2015 Subaru Forester 2.5 engine/CVT
2015 Ford F250 w/Powerstroke
2016 Subaru Crosstrek CVT (wife's)
Re: Engine teardown with weight comparison? [Re: JLTD] #4640232
01/19/18 05:55 PM
01/19/18 05:55 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,970
MN
oil_film_movies Offline
oil_film_movies  Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,970
MN
Originally Posted By: JLTD
I don't know that I can agree on the part part of your post bolded in italics above; I recall reading on here somewhere that the oil recommendation in the owner's manual is required to be the oil used for CAFE figures, and ONLY the oil grade used for those figures. Seems to me if that's what the government is requiring, then the engineers no longer write the manual in that respect.

The EPA (CAFE people) have never required the use of xw20 oils.
The automakers have turned to xw20 oils to get about 1% better fuel economy compared to using xw30 oils, and that does count on the EPA FTP MPG CAFE.
Note its the automakers choice to use xw20 to get 1% better CAFE. They didn't have to do it. Never forced to.

That said, the engineers have been designing engines to keep the Stribeck Curve in the same or similar position by making the bearing surfaces larger to accomodate xw20 oils. Durability remains the same or similar.
It is true engines spec'ed to xw20 will run just fine on xw30 oil, with a small MPG penalty. Automakers do perform durability testing to be confident xw20 oils aren't too thin to sacrifice durability.

Re: Engine teardown with weight comparison? [Re: BullittGT] #4640261
01/19/18 06:18 PM
01/19/18 06:18 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 542
Texas (south)
FermeLaPorte Offline
FermeLaPorte  Offline
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 542
Texas (south)
ExxonMobil owns fleets of Taxis in Las Vegas and many other cities. That's where they do their testing.


Always Mobil 1
2014 1.6L Nissan Versa Sedan, 5 spd, 5k OCI.
2011 3.5L Chevrolet Impala, Automatic, 5k OCI.
Re: Engine teardown with weight comparison? [Re: BullittGT] #4640475
01/19/18 09:58 PM
01/19/18 09:58 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,259
Malaysia
zeng Offline
zeng  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,259
Malaysia
Originally Posted By: BullittGT
I'm sure this will matter to some people, but my main thought is on the long term protection.
All else being equal, operating viscosity matters for components protection. It's physics.

Originally Posted By: paulri

Quote:
Abstract of Toyota research says:
Lowering the viscosity of engine oil is effectice in reducing the fluid friction.
However, it decreases the oil film thickness, and causes the increase in the wear of the engine parts.


But does it matter to others, that's a different issue altogether.

Re: Engine teardown with weight comparison? [Re: zeng] #4640495
01/19/18 10:21 PM
01/19/18 10:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 839
CA, USA
paulri Offline
paulri  Offline
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 839
CA, USA
The sentence you quoted is followed by another, that summarizes the findings:

Through the engine wear tests using an [sic] radioisotope tracer technique, it was clarified that an HTHS viscosity of 2.6 mPa-s was the lower limit to prevent the increasing wear.


Originally Posted By: zeng
Originally Posted By: BullittGT
I'm sure this will matter to some people, but my main thought is on the long term protection.
All else being equal, operating viscosity matters for components protection. It's physics.

Originally Posted By: paulri

Quote:
Abstract of Toyota research says:
Lowering the viscosity of engine oil is effectice in reducing the fluid friction.
However, it decreases the oil film thickness, and causes the increase in the wear of the engine parts.


But does it matter to others, that's a different issue altogether.


2005 Toyota Sienna LE; 156,000 miles
1998 Honda Civic DX; 202,000 miles
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