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TBN Zero #4458862
07/13/17 11:55 PM
07/13/17 11:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 6
AU
bigunz Offline OP
bigunz  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 6
AU
Hi

Iím looking for some help / advice with a recent UOA I had done on my car.

98 RON fuel sulphur content over here in Oz is supposed to be 50 ppm.

The TBN came back at 0 on a sample with 4040 kms (2510 miles) on the oil, which was ran for approx two months. Iím wondering if I should get it retested elsewhere or take it as gospel?

The oil was Mobil 1 5w30 ESP, metal #ís look fine and oil was still in grade but oxidation was 26, nitration 10 and sulphation 34, zero fuel dilution.

Just wondering.. When they do the tbn test, would it screw the results up if they used the wrong oil base tbn value which was higher (They used M1 5w30 EP as the could not find ESP)

I changed the oil at the time of collection of the sample.

thanks

Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz] #4458874
07/14/17 12:20 AM
07/14/17 12:20 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,262
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,262
Waco, TX
ESP = Emissions system protection

It's a "Low SAPS" oil and starts off new with a low TBN


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz] #4458917
07/14/17 02:51 AM
07/14/17 02:51 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,625
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,625
Down Under
Hey Mate,

Yeah that is correct in that Oz 98 RON is 50 ppm sulphur.

The M1 5W30 ESP is a low SAPS (0.6%), low TBN (~ 6.5) oil, here is an old VOA
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3119418
And here is a more recent UOA (The image is gone but still some info in the comments)
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4362718/1
In particular the TBN went from 6.46 to 2.1 in about 5k miles, you have done half that, so you should have ample TBN left.

M1 5W30 EP has more SAPS (0.8%) and more TBN (~ 9)
Here is a M1 0W20 EP VOA
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3339808/

But, yes after 4000 KM / 2500 miles on premium fuel, with a starting TBN of 6.5 for M1 5w30 ESP, I would expect about half of that TBN to still be there. It doesn't make sense to me that you have a zero TBN reading.

I would write to them and ask, they can probably sort it out fairly quickly for you.


Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz] #4458980
07/14/17 06:31 AM
07/14/17 06:31 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,203
Slovenia EU
Kamele0N Online sick
Kamele0N  Online Sick
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,203
Slovenia EU
Low saps oils are intended to be used with sulphur free gasoline/diesel... Here in EU where we have sulphur free gasoline/diesel it works...

For your country I would rather use A3/B4 or HDEO oil...it has stronger package


2011 Hyundai i30 1.4 CVVT Shell Helix Ultra 5w40
1997 Toyota Landcruiser KZJ95 3.0 TD Shell Rimula R6M 10w40
Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz] #4459095
07/14/17 09:01 AM
07/14/17 09:01 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,026
OH
fdcg27 Offline
fdcg27  Offline
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,026
OH
I find it hard to believe that TBN would be totally depleted after such a short run whatever the sulfur content of your fuel.
This sounds like a lab error or merely an absent number on your report where zero is the default value to me.


17 Forester 18K VME 0W-20
12 Accord LX 92K PP 5W-20
09 Forester 95K M1HM 10W-30
01 Focus ZX3 118K PP 5W-20
96 Accord LX 104K T5 10W-30
95 318i
Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz] #4459114
07/14/17 09:32 AM
07/14/17 09:32 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,868
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,868
Kalifornia Kollective
Agree with all the above, but I'd still get it sorted out. An actual TBN of zero is an indicator of something wrong ...

Did they do a TAN too?

Last edited by BrocLuno; 07/14/17 09:33 AM.

Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz] #4459124
07/14/17 09:47 AM
07/14/17 09:47 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,905
NE,Ohio
Rand Online content
Rand  Online Content
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,905
NE,Ohio
http://transportpolicy.net/index.php?title=Global_Comparison:_Fuels



2019 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk 2.0T
Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz] #4459232
07/14/17 12:31 PM
07/14/17 12:31 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 13,534
Chicago, IL
dparm Offline
dparm  Offline
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 13,534
Chicago, IL
If the TBN was zero, there should be something else in the report that supports that, e.g. some sort of massive contamination. I would ask them to re-run it and/or perform TAN.


2017 Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport
Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz] #4461160
07/16/17 06:58 PM
07/16/17 06:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 6
AU
bigunz Offline OP
bigunz  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 6
AU

Thanks for all the comments.

I too thought that the low run would of been low enough to judge how this oil would be with its low tbn and the sulphur content etc, but it seems that I should of changed it sooner as per the UOA, unless they have stuffed up?

A person from the lab rang me while they were testing it and said they where concerned about the tbn, sulphation and oxidation of the oil and the conversation got on to the oil they tested it against and he said they used Mobil 1 EP 5w30 for the reference #ís for this sample for the TBN etc, which I pointed out it was ESP and not EP.. at which point the conversation seemed to be moved on, thinking about it now.
Which to me sounds like that could or may of stuffed the readings up by using the wrong data? Or am I just clutching at straws here? does anyone know if that would be the case? As I watched a video on you tube and it said that they need the reference # and tbn from a virgin sample of the same oil to input into the test equipment that spits out the tbn reading.


Thanks again

Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz] #4461181
07/16/17 07:45 PM
07/16/17 07:45 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,092
upstate NY
dustyroads Online content
dustyroads  Online Content
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,092
upstate NY
First off, there's no way that the TBN was that low in such low miles (kilometers). As you put it, they "stuffed up" laugh comparing M1ESP to M1EP. If the oil was truly depleted of TBN and high in acid, there would likely be an uptick in wear metals due to corrosion.

If the lab doesn't use one of the ASTM methods (D4739 or D2896), then try another lab. Here in the U.S. we have a quick lube chain for semi trucks that uses an estimate for everything except the wear metals. Put a sample into a desk top machine, tell it what brand and grade of oil, the miles and voila....an estimated UOA. Not worth a dime to me. I'm not saying that the lab you used is anything like that but it isn't ideal.


2013 F150 XLT 5.0 4X4 101k miles
Edge 5W-30 / Fram 10575
Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz] #4527169
09/26/17 10:22 PM
09/26/17 10:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 6
AU
bigunz Offline OP
bigunz  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 6
AU
Just updating this.

Well it turns out there was nothing to worry about.

I had them retest the TBN which came back still at 0.0 after I sent them a virgin sample and they claimed the VOA TBN was 9.4 from memory. I know that was untrue as according to Mobil its around 6.5. mad

I then sent a UOA to Blackstone and it came back at 4.0.

So needless to say these clowns wont be seeing any more of my money.

Anyone have any ideas how I could get a polaris test kit as OAI wont send me one. frown

Last edited by bigunz; 09/26/17 10:26 PM.
Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz] #4527180
09/26/17 10:34 PM
09/26/17 10:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
bigj_16 Offline
bigj_16  Offline
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
Originally Posted By: bigunz
Just updating this.

Well it turns out there was nothing to worry about.

I had them retest the TBN which came back still at 0.0 after I sent them a virgin sample and they claimed the VOA TBN was 9.4 from memory. I know that was untrue as according to Mobil its around 6.5. mad

I then sent a UOA to Blackstone and it came back at 4.0.

So needless to say these clowns wont be seeing any more of my money.

Anyone have any ideas how I could get a polaris test kit as OAI wont send me one. frown


Why do clowns always take the brunt of it? smirk

Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz] #4527263
09/27/17 04:59 AM
09/27/17 04:59 AM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 551
South OZ
KL31 Offline
KL31  Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 551
South OZ
You sent a sample all the way to Blackstone in USA? I'm going to be trying Cav power's SOS lab for my UOA in November. I'll let you know how it goes. It's $37 or something with postage but I opted for just dropping it off and saving the $6-7.

Also, our 98 RON is meant to be 50ppm max yeah? I've read that from some places it can be far less than that.


95 MX-3 2.5L|Shell Helix Ultra 5W40|Wix 51356
04 Focus 1.8L|Wesfil Cooper WZ63|Valvoline MST 5W30
05 Kluger 3.3L|Wesfil Cooper WZ418|Magnatec 10W30 Semi Syn
Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz] #4527278
09/27/17 05:52 AM
09/27/17 05:52 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,894
Southeast Texas
gfh77665 Offline
gfh77665  Offline
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,894
Southeast Texas
Originally Posted By: bigj_16

Why do clowns always take the brunt of it? smirk


https://goo.gl/images/8d1ebV

Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz] #4527306
09/27/17 06:54 AM
09/27/17 06:54 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,625
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,625
Down Under
OP a TBN of 4 sounds about right to me. Thanks for the update.


Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
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