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#4458862 - 07/13/17 11:55 PM TBN Zero
bigunz Offline


Registered: 01/05/17
Posts: 6
Loc: AU
Hi

Iím looking for some help / advice with a recent UOA I had done on my car.

98 RON fuel sulphur content over here in Oz is supposed to be 50 ppm.

The TBN came back at 0 on a sample with 4040 kms (2510 miles) on the oil, which was ran for approx two months. Iím wondering if I should get it retested elsewhere or take it as gospel?

The oil was Mobil 1 5w30 ESP, metal #ís look fine and oil was still in grade but oxidation was 26, nitration 10 and sulphation 34, zero fuel dilution.

Just wondering.. When they do the tbn test, would it screw the results up if they used the wrong oil base tbn value which was higher (They used M1 5w30 EP as the could not find ESP)

I changed the oil at the time of collection of the sample.

thanks

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#4458874 - 07/14/17 12:20 AM Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz]
Linctex Offline


Registered: 12/31/16
Posts: 6148
Loc: Waco, TX
ESP = Emissions system protection

It's a "Low SAPS" oil and starts off new with a low TBN
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#4458917 - 07/14/17 02:51 AM Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz]
SR5 Offline


Registered: 07/07/15
Posts: 4458
Loc: Down Under
Hey Mate,

Yeah that is correct in that Oz 98 RON is 50 ppm sulphur.

The M1 5W30 ESP is a low SAPS (0.6%), low TBN (~ 6.5) oil, here is an old VOA
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3119418
And here is a more recent UOA (The image is gone but still some info in the comments)
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4362718/1
In particular the TBN went from 6.46 to 2.1 in about 5k miles, you have done half that, so you should have ample TBN left.

M1 5W30 EP has more SAPS (0.8%) and more TBN (~ 9)
Here is a M1 0W20 EP VOA
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3339808/

But, yes after 4000 KM / 2500 miles on premium fuel, with a starting TBN of 6.5 for M1 5w30 ESP, I would expect about half of that TBN to still be there. It doesn't make sense to me that you have a zero TBN reading.

I would write to them and ask, they can probably sort it out fairly quickly for you.
_________________________
Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154

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#4458980 - 07/14/17 06:31 AM Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz]
Kamele0N Offline


Registered: 02/09/15
Posts: 2038
Loc: Slovenia
Low saps oils are intended to be used with sulphur free gasoline/diesel... Here in EU where we have sulphur free gasoline/diesel it works...

For your country I would rather use A3/B4 or HDEO oil...it has stronger package
_________________________
2011 Hyundai i30 1.4 CVVT Shell Helix Ultra 5w40
1997 Toyota Landcruiser KZJ95 3.0 TD various 10w40

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#4459095 - 07/14/17 09:01 AM Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 15687
Loc: OH
I find it hard to believe that TBN would be totally depleted after such a short run whatever the sulfur content of your fuel.
This sounds like a lab error or merely an absent number on your report where zero is the default value to me.
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#4459114 - 07/14/17 09:32 AM Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz]
BrocLuno Offline


Registered: 09/06/15
Posts: 5508
Loc: Kalifornia Kollective
Agree with all the above, but I'd still get it sorted out. An actual TBN of zero is an indicator of something wrong ...

Did they do a TAN too?


Edited by BrocLuno (07/14/17 09:33 AM)
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#4459124 - 07/14/17 09:47 AM Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz]
Rand Offline


Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 12638
Loc: NE,Ohio
http://transportpolicy.net/index.php?title=Global_Comparison:_Fuels

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2017 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk V6

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#4459232 - 07/14/17 12:31 PM Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 13466
Loc: Chicago, IL
If the TBN was zero, there should be something else in the report that supports that, e.g. some sort of massive contamination. I would ask them to re-run it and/or perform TAN.
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2017 Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport

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#4461160 - 07/16/17 06:58 PM Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz]
bigunz Offline


Registered: 01/05/17
Posts: 6
Loc: AU

Thanks for all the comments.

I too thought that the low run would of been low enough to judge how this oil would be with its low tbn and the sulphur content etc, but it seems that I should of changed it sooner as per the UOA, unless they have stuffed up?

A person from the lab rang me while they were testing it and said they where concerned about the tbn, sulphation and oxidation of the oil and the conversation got on to the oil they tested it against and he said they used Mobil 1 EP 5w30 for the reference #ís for this sample for the TBN etc, which I pointed out it was ESP and not EP.. at which point the conversation seemed to be moved on, thinking about it now.
Which to me sounds like that could or may of stuffed the readings up by using the wrong data? Or am I just clutching at straws here? does anyone know if that would be the case? As I watched a video on you tube and it said that they need the reference # and tbn from a virgin sample of the same oil to input into the test equipment that spits out the tbn reading.


Thanks again

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#4461181 - 07/16/17 07:45 PM Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz]
dustyroads Offline


Registered: 05/13/13
Posts: 1061
Loc: upstate NY
First off, there's no way that the TBN was that low in such low miles (kilometers). As you put it, they "stuffed up" laugh comparing M1ESP to M1EP. If the oil was truly depleted of TBN and high in acid, there would likely be an uptick in wear metals due to corrosion.

If the lab doesn't use one of the ASTM methods (D4739 or D2896), then try another lab. Here in the U.S. we have a quick lube chain for semi trucks that uses an estimate for everything except the wear metals. Put a sample into a desk top machine, tell it what brand and grade of oil, the miles and voila....an estimated UOA. Not worth a dime to me. I'm not saying that the lab you used is anything like that but it isn't ideal.
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#4527169 - 09/26/17 10:22 PM Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz]
bigunz Offline


Registered: 01/05/17
Posts: 6
Loc: AU
Just updating this.

Well it turns out there was nothing to worry about.

I had them retest the TBN which came back still at 0.0 after I sent them a virgin sample and they claimed the VOA TBN was 9.4 from memory. I know that was untrue as according to Mobil its around 6.5. mad

I then sent a UOA to Blackstone and it came back at 4.0.

So needless to say these clowns wont be seeing any more of my money.

Anyone have any ideas how I could get a polaris test kit as OAI wont send me one. frown


Edited by bigunz (09/26/17 10:26 PM)

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#4527180 - 09/26/17 10:34 PM Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz]
bigj_16 Offline


Registered: 07/03/17
Posts: 1267
Loc: Douglas County, Colorado
Originally Posted By: bigunz
Just updating this.

Well it turns out there was nothing to worry about.

I had them retest the TBN which came back still at 0.0 after I sent them a virgin sample and they claimed the VOA TBN was 9.4 from memory. I know that was untrue as according to Mobil its around 6.5. mad

I then sent a UOA to Blackstone and it came back at 4.0.

So needless to say these clowns wont be seeing any more of my money.

Anyone have any ideas how I could get a polaris test kit as OAI wont send me one. frown


Why do clowns always take the brunt of it? smirk

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#4527263 - 09/27/17 04:59 AM Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz]
KL31 Offline


Registered: 06/03/16
Posts: 549
Loc: South OZ
You sent a sample all the way to Blackstone in USA? I'm going to be trying Cav power's SOS lab for my UOA in November. I'll let you know how it goes. It's $37 or something with postage but I opted for just dropping it off and saving the $6-7.

Also, our 98 RON is meant to be 50ppm max yeah? I've read that from some places it can be far less than that.
_________________________
95 MX-3 2.5L|Shell Helix Ultra 5W40|Wix 51356
04 Focus 1.8L|Wesfil Cooper WZ63|Valvoline MST 5W30
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#4527278 - 09/27/17 05:52 AM Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz]
gfh77665 Offline


Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 3789
Loc: Southeast Texas
Originally Posted By: bigj_16

Why do clowns always take the brunt of it? smirk


https://goo.gl/images/8d1ebV

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#4527306 - 09/27/17 06:54 AM Re: TBN Zero [Re: bigunz]
SR5 Offline


Registered: 07/07/15
Posts: 4458
Loc: Down Under
OP a TBN of 4 sounds about right to me. Thanks for the update.
_________________________
Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154

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