Heck,even if the Edsel had AWD and a "trendy" boxer engine back in 58,it WOULD have sold too.All someone else needs to do is come out with some AWD cars (wagons especially) priced around $22K,and Subaru wont be the AWD car king anymore.But,as its the only game in town....
Four reasons why Subaru will stay num. one in AWD
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Originally Posted By: spasm3
I would be interested if it had selectable 4wd with a transfer case. I don't really want all time awd.
Me too. I don't like 4WD that is FWD bias when 4WD is not in use. Part time 4WD with RWD bias is still my favorite. I do give kudos to Subaru though their system is highly respected, and great in snow.
I would be interested if it had selectable 4wd with a transfer case. I don't really want all time awd.
Me too. I don't like 4WD that is FWD bias when 4WD is not in use. Part time 4WD with RWD bias is still my favorite. I do give kudos to Subaru though their system is highly respected, and great in snow.
I think a lot of their vehicles are sold to people who really think that Subaru's AWD system is better in the snow than a vehicle properly equipped with snow tires. A majority of Subaru's customers are lulled into a false sense of security with their products.
However, with that said, they do make unique products. First, station wagons. Second, AWD Crossovers with manual transmissions.
However, with that said, they do make unique products. First, station wagons. Second, AWD Crossovers with manual transmissions.
Subaru does a stellar job of marketing and managing perception of their AWD credentials. While they do have a good system(s) they're also not that special with open diffs. on most vehicles they sell. Several other manufacturers are light years ahead of them with different technologies/approaches applied to AWD systems.
Many of these videos you see on the net where a Subaru magically skunks everything else around it in X, Y, Z obstacle test are produced by Subaru, often with paid drivers, and many parameters/variables which they do not stipulate.
And torquenews.com are absolute sycophants for Subaru.
Many of these videos you see on the net where a Subaru magically skunks everything else around it in X, Y, Z obstacle test are produced by Subaru, often with paid drivers, and many parameters/variables which they do not stipulate.
And torquenews.com are absolute sycophants for Subaru.
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Originally Posted By: Miller88
I think a lot of their vehicles are sold to people who really think that Subaru's AWD system is better in the snow than a vehicle properly equipped with snow tires. A majority of Subaru's customers are lulled into a false sense of security with their products.
....or they're sold to people who don't have the room to store an entire extra set of wheels/tires year round and need something that does a passable job in bad weather on all-seasons.
Not all of us have a garage, or even a garage big enough for that. A Subaru on all-seasons does a fine job in snow.
I think a lot of their vehicles are sold to people who really think that Subaru's AWD system is better in the snow than a vehicle properly equipped with snow tires. A majority of Subaru's customers are lulled into a false sense of security with their products.
....or they're sold to people who don't have the room to store an entire extra set of wheels/tires year round and need something that does a passable job in bad weather on all-seasons.
Not all of us have a garage, or even a garage big enough for that. A Subaru on all-seasons does a fine job in snow.
Originally Posted By: NHGUY
All someone else needs to do is come out with some AWD cars (wagons especially) priced around $22K,and Subaru wont be the AWD car king anymore.But,as its the only game in town....
That explains the statement I've seen posted on various forums: "The day (insert brand name here) introduces their own AWD cars and wagons, is the day Subaru takes its place as a distant Number 2."
All someone else needs to do is come out with some AWD cars (wagons especially) priced around $22K,and Subaru wont be the AWD car king anymore.But,as its the only game in town....
That explains the statement I've seen posted on various forums: "The day (insert brand name here) introduces their own AWD cars and wagons, is the day Subaru takes its place as a distant Number 2."
Originally Posted By: css9450
Originally Posted By: NHGUY
All someone else needs to do is come out with some AWD cars (wagons especially) priced around $22K,and Subaru wont be the AWD car king anymore.But,as its the only game in town....
That explains the statement I've seen posted on various forums: "The day (insert brand name here) introduces their own AWD cars and wagons, is the day Subaru takes its place as a distant Number 2."
The problem is other brands do introduce AWD version of vehicles. However the systems simply pale in comparison to Subaru for one reason. Subaru builds the car with the intention of AWD as core product (except BRZ). Everything else is a jury rigged retrofit engineered system except maybe Audi.
Originally Posted By: NHGUY
All someone else needs to do is come out with some AWD cars (wagons especially) priced around $22K,and Subaru wont be the AWD car king anymore.But,as its the only game in town....
That explains the statement I've seen posted on various forums: "The day (insert brand name here) introduces their own AWD cars and wagons, is the day Subaru takes its place as a distant Number 2."
The problem is other brands do introduce AWD version of vehicles. However the systems simply pale in comparison to Subaru for one reason. Subaru builds the car with the intention of AWD as core product (except BRZ). Everything else is a jury rigged retrofit engineered system except maybe Audi.
Originally Posted By: Miller88
I think a lot of their vehicles are sold to people who really think that Subaru's AWD system is better in the snow than a vehicle properly equipped with snow tires. A majority of Subaru's customers are lulled into a false sense of security with their products.
However, with that said, they do make unique products. First, station wagons. Second, AWD Crossovers with manual transmissions.
It actually is on steeper untreated hills(driveways) and can be in deeper snow and mud season gravel roads. Growing up that is why Subaru was popular and winter tires were few and far between. For our use a all-season equipped Subaru get us to our ski house with poorly treated driveway(1/4 mile across open field) that drifts in daily. Basically ice/snow packed gravel with fine powder on top. Some winter tire equipped tire FWD and RWD still get stuck in it while our Legacy wagon finds a bit of tractions some where and ploys through it.
The Outback and Forester offer high ground clearance for a vehicle which help them a lot too.
That all being said if you travel on normal roads and have a decent flat driveway that is well treated FWD with winter tires is an excellent choice.
I think a lot of their vehicles are sold to people who really think that Subaru's AWD system is better in the snow than a vehicle properly equipped with snow tires. A majority of Subaru's customers are lulled into a false sense of security with their products.
However, with that said, they do make unique products. First, station wagons. Second, AWD Crossovers with manual transmissions.
It actually is on steeper untreated hills(driveways) and can be in deeper snow and mud season gravel roads. Growing up that is why Subaru was popular and winter tires were few and far between. For our use a all-season equipped Subaru get us to our ski house with poorly treated driveway(1/4 mile across open field) that drifts in daily. Basically ice/snow packed gravel with fine powder on top. Some winter tire equipped tire FWD and RWD still get stuck in it while our Legacy wagon finds a bit of tractions some where and ploys through it.
The Outback and Forester offer high ground clearance for a vehicle which help them a lot too.
That all being said if you travel on normal roads and have a decent flat driveway that is well treated FWD with winter tires is an excellent choice.
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Originally Posted By: gofast182
Several other manufacturers are light years ahead of them with different technologies/approaches applied to AWD systems.
Please list these manufacturers and the msrp price points of their offerings as compared to msrp of Subaru's lineup. Also, explain how these other AWD systems are "light years" ahead of Subaru's layout. Talk is cheap. Show us the goods.
Originally Posted By: gofast182
While they do have a good system(s) they're also not that special with open diffs. on most vehicles they sell.
You are confusing the common distinction between AWD vs. 4WD. 4WD traditionally means an off-road specific design with locking transfer case and maybe LSD's on one or both axles. AWD traditionally means a system intended for full time on-road use. A system designed for mostly on-road use has to have some slippage in the transfer. And as for use of open diffs-- every AWD design out there is using them, most recently in concert with electronically based traction control that uses ABS to individually apply braking a wheel losing traction in order for the power to transfer to the other side of the axle (using term axle loosely) that may have traction, and throttle-by-wire to cut power. Perhaps not as effective as a true blue mechanical LSD but it's become the norm among most AWD systems these days.
You want to compare the on-road AWD's of other manufacturer's with Subaru in a soft road or even off-road environment? Okay, let's go. My Forester will smoke your Acura on any trail and even off road.
Several other manufacturers are light years ahead of them with different technologies/approaches applied to AWD systems.
Please list these manufacturers and the msrp price points of their offerings as compared to msrp of Subaru's lineup. Also, explain how these other AWD systems are "light years" ahead of Subaru's layout. Talk is cheap. Show us the goods.
Originally Posted By: gofast182
While they do have a good system(s) they're also not that special with open diffs. on most vehicles they sell.
You are confusing the common distinction between AWD vs. 4WD. 4WD traditionally means an off-road specific design with locking transfer case and maybe LSD's on one or both axles. AWD traditionally means a system intended for full time on-road use. A system designed for mostly on-road use has to have some slippage in the transfer. And as for use of open diffs-- every AWD design out there is using them, most recently in concert with electronically based traction control that uses ABS to individually apply braking a wheel losing traction in order for the power to transfer to the other side of the axle (using term axle loosely) that may have traction, and throttle-by-wire to cut power. Perhaps not as effective as a true blue mechanical LSD but it's become the norm among most AWD systems these days.
You want to compare the on-road AWD's of other manufacturer's with Subaru in a soft road or even off-road environment? Okay, let's go. My Forester will smoke your Acura on any trail and even off road.
Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: Miller88
I think a lot of their vehicles are sold to people who really think that Subaru's AWD system is better in the snow than a vehicle properly equipped with snow tires. A majority of Subaru's customers are lulled into a false sense of security with their products.
....or they're sold to people who don't have the room to store an entire extra set of wheels/tires year round and need something that does a passable job in bad weather on all-seasons.
Not all of us have a garage, or even a garage big enough for that. A Subaru on all-seasons does a fine job in snow.
How about this. You take a Subaru on all seasons up here for a snow storm. I'll put my FWD focus on snow tires against it.
I'll outperform you in EVERY situation.
And Subaru's AWD system WILL NOT HELP when you hit a hill of solid packed, hard snow. Going is only part of the situation. Turning and stopping on hard packed snow and ice are not going to be helped.
If you come up here for a snow storm, 99% of vehicles you see off the road are the ones who think their Subaru (or other AWD) is invincible in the snow.
I'll stick to my FWD focus and 4x4 Jeep - both of which are on good tires for snow. Unless we get feet of snow and I would be out of ground clearance on the Focus (as would must Subarus), I won't even drive my Jeep in the snow.
Originally Posted By: Miller88
I think a lot of their vehicles are sold to people who really think that Subaru's AWD system is better in the snow than a vehicle properly equipped with snow tires. A majority of Subaru's customers are lulled into a false sense of security with their products.
....or they're sold to people who don't have the room to store an entire extra set of wheels/tires year round and need something that does a passable job in bad weather on all-seasons.
Not all of us have a garage, or even a garage big enough for that. A Subaru on all-seasons does a fine job in snow.
How about this. You take a Subaru on all seasons up here for a snow storm. I'll put my FWD focus on snow tires against it.
I'll outperform you in EVERY situation.
And Subaru's AWD system WILL NOT HELP when you hit a hill of solid packed, hard snow. Going is only part of the situation. Turning and stopping on hard packed snow and ice are not going to be helped.
If you come up here for a snow storm, 99% of vehicles you see off the road are the ones who think their Subaru (or other AWD) is invincible in the snow.
I'll stick to my FWD focus and 4x4 Jeep - both of which are on good tires for snow. Unless we get feet of snow and I would be out of ground clearance on the Focus (as would must Subarus), I won't even drive my Jeep in the snow.
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: Mykl
....or they're sold to people who don't have the room to store an entire extra set of wheels/tires year round and need something that does a passable job in bad weather on all-seasons.
Not all of us have a garage, or even a garage big enough for that. A Subaru on all-seasons does a fine job in snow.
How about this. You take a Subaru on all seasons up here for a snow storm. I'll put my FWD focus on snow tires against it.
I'll outperform you in EVERY situation.
Yeah, and that being true doesn't change the fact that not everyone has room to store an entire extra set of wheels and tires year round. That the best option for those people, or anybody who doesn't want to bother with it, is to just go with a good AWD vehicle equipped with quality all season tires.
Not only that, but I know people who are physically incapable of doing the physical work of actually changing out a set of wheels/tires... like my 84 year old grandfather who lives in an apartment and relies on his Subaru to get food in the winter. Should these people just remain trapped in their home at the first sign of snow and pray that they've stored enough provisions to make it through? ...or should they drive your FWD car with snow tires on it during the summer?
It's great that your garage is apparently equipped to reconfigure your car for every possible weather condition, but not everyone has that luxury.
Originally Posted By: Mykl
....or they're sold to people who don't have the room to store an entire extra set of wheels/tires year round and need something that does a passable job in bad weather on all-seasons.
Not all of us have a garage, or even a garage big enough for that. A Subaru on all-seasons does a fine job in snow.
How about this. You take a Subaru on all seasons up here for a snow storm. I'll put my FWD focus on snow tires against it.
I'll outperform you in EVERY situation.
Yeah, and that being true doesn't change the fact that not everyone has room to store an entire extra set of wheels and tires year round. That the best option for those people, or anybody who doesn't want to bother with it, is to just go with a good AWD vehicle equipped with quality all season tires.
Not only that, but I know people who are physically incapable of doing the physical work of actually changing out a set of wheels/tires... like my 84 year old grandfather who lives in an apartment and relies on his Subaru to get food in the winter. Should these people just remain trapped in their home at the first sign of snow and pray that they've stored enough provisions to make it through? ...or should they drive your FWD car with snow tires on it during the summer?
It's great that your garage is apparently equipped to reconfigure your car for every possible weather condition, but not everyone has that luxury.
Haha loneranger, denial is a funny thing. If you're talking strictly about pricepoint, then yes, you're right, but the article isn't talking about that. Acura's SH-AWD has been ahead of the curve with torque vectoring since 2005 and their new Sport Hybrid AWD system is at the top of the heap when it comes to advanced technology applied to AWD. Audi's Quattro...enough said all by itself. BMW's xDrive. Mitsubishi AWC. Nissan has Dynamic Drive. I could go on. All of these systems are more advanced than what's sold on most Subarus and you don't have to spend massive bucks to get some of them, either. Additionally, the systems mentioned above don't need to rely on individual wheel braking to fool an open diff into traction, they can apportion the torque directly. Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying any Subaru is bad, just pointing out that the premise of the article by that lapdog site is flawed.
As for your Subaru and my Acura, since I'm pretty sure your Subaru spends most of its time on paved roads as does my Acura, I'm not sure what an off-road competition would prove, but I can guarantee you that on-road, where it is most relevant, my Acura would embarrass your Subaru.
As for your Subaru and my Acura, since I'm pretty sure your Subaru spends most of its time on paved roads as does my Acura, I'm not sure what an off-road competition would prove, but I can guarantee you that on-road, where it is most relevant, my Acura would embarrass your Subaru.
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Originally Posted By: gofast182
I can guarantee you that on-road, where it is most relevant, my Acura would embarrass your Subaru.
Doesn't your Acura cost nearly $10,000 more than the equivalent Subaru? I assume you're talking about your MDX?
I can guarantee you that on-road, where it is most relevant, my Acura would embarrass your Subaru.
Doesn't your Acura cost nearly $10,000 more than the equivalent Subaru? I assume you're talking about your MDX?
Originally Posted By: BHopkins
Why no one else has came to market yet with a turbo diesel hybrid is beyond me. .
Answer: Diesel emissions. Start/stop makes it difficult to keep it running at optimum temps.
Why no one else has came to market yet with a turbo diesel hybrid is beyond me. .
Answer: Diesel emissions. Start/stop makes it difficult to keep it running at optimum temps.
Quote:
Haha loneranger, denial is a funny thing. If you're talking strictly about pricepoint, then yes, you're right, but the article isn't talking about that. Acura's SH-AWD has been ahead of the curve with torque vectoring since 2005 and their new Sport Hybrid AWD system is at the top of the heap when it comes to advanced technology applied to AWD. Audi's Quattro...enough said all by itself. BMW's xDrive. Mitsubishi AWC. Nissan has Dynamic Drive. I could go on. All of these systems are more advanced than what's sold on most Subarus and you don't have to spend massive bucks to get some of them, either. Additionally, the systems mentioned above don't need to rely on individual wheel braking to fool an open diff into traction, they can apportion the torque directly. Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying any Subaru is bad, just pointing out that the premise of the article by that lapdog site is flawed.
As for your Subaru and my Acura, since I'm pretty sure your Subaru spends most of its time on paved roads as does my Acura, I'm not sure what an off-road competition would prove, but I can guarantee you that on-road, where it is most relevant, my Acura would embarrass your Subaru.
The most recent article I've read regarding Acura SH-AWD mentioned that it's system can only transfer up to 80-100 FT-LB of torque to the rear wheels. That pretty much discounts Acura AWD system as a leading AWD system in my book.
The rest of the AWD systems you mentioned also uses ABS systems for torque vectoring except for Audi and BMW. Most Mitsubishis in North America has open rear diffs. I'm not sure about Nissan though.
Haha loneranger, denial is a funny thing. If you're talking strictly about pricepoint, then yes, you're right, but the article isn't talking about that. Acura's SH-AWD has been ahead of the curve with torque vectoring since 2005 and their new Sport Hybrid AWD system is at the top of the heap when it comes to advanced technology applied to AWD. Audi's Quattro...enough said all by itself. BMW's xDrive. Mitsubishi AWC. Nissan has Dynamic Drive. I could go on. All of these systems are more advanced than what's sold on most Subarus and you don't have to spend massive bucks to get some of them, either. Additionally, the systems mentioned above don't need to rely on individual wheel braking to fool an open diff into traction, they can apportion the torque directly. Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying any Subaru is bad, just pointing out that the premise of the article by that lapdog site is flawed.
As for your Subaru and my Acura, since I'm pretty sure your Subaru spends most of its time on paved roads as does my Acura, I'm not sure what an off-road competition would prove, but I can guarantee you that on-road, where it is most relevant, my Acura would embarrass your Subaru.
The most recent article I've read regarding Acura SH-AWD mentioned that it's system can only transfer up to 80-100 FT-LB of torque to the rear wheels. That pretty much discounts Acura AWD system as a leading AWD system in my book.
The rest of the AWD systems you mentioned also uses ABS systems for torque vectoring except for Audi and BMW. Most Mitsubishis in North America has open rear diffs. I'm not sure about Nissan though.
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The vehicles you see at most trailheads and campgrounds are Outbacks, Foresters and Tacomas. By far.
This AWD [censored] contest is fun, though
This AWD [censored] contest is fun, though
I think I saw the same thing, that's a nominal value, NOT the peak capacity of the system. Regardless the fact that it can and manner in which it does it is still great engineering that has great and proven performance benefits on both wet, snowy, and dry roads (this goes for any similarly set-up system). WRX and STi are a different ballgame as they have much better systems.
My Forester with the manual transmission splits the power 50/50 front and rear. I would like LSDs on each axle, but it is plenty capable with all-seasons, or in my case all-terrains.
I put a set of Yokohama Geolanders on mine so I had something good to run all year. Snow tires would be better for cornering and stopping, but my biggest concern was driving on unplowed roads through deep snow. I'm required to be at work 23 miles from home regardless of the weather, and frequently at odd hours before the plows get out.
I've gotten the Forester through some very deep stuff this year that would have buried a FWD car with lower ground clearance, snow tires or otherwise.
Forester tires.
I put a set of Yokohama Geolanders on mine so I had something good to run all year. Snow tires would be better for cornering and stopping, but my biggest concern was driving on unplowed roads through deep snow. I'm required to be at work 23 miles from home regardless of the weather, and frequently at odd hours before the plows get out.
I've gotten the Forester through some very deep stuff this year that would have buried a FWD car with lower ground clearance, snow tires or otherwise.
Forester tires.
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