Common argument about synth oil getting dirty

[metroplex]

A common synth vs non-synth argument is that synthetic oil still gets dirty just like dino oil, so an extended oil interval is just poppycock.

But what if we changed the oil filters? I mean, they're designed to filter out all but the smallest of dirt particles. WOuldn't changing the oil filters periodically throughout, say a 5000 mile interval, benefit the oil and engine?

 

[jjbula]

My answer to the dirt issue is to analyze the oil for wear.

I will also be using Auto-Rx every 4th oil change or so to clean the engine.

Another way to stop the dirt is bypass filtration. It may be cheaper and better in the long run.

 

[metroplex]

can you explain this bypass filtration setup?
Thanks

 

[SteveD2]

A bypass filter take a small portion of the oil pump output, 10% or less, gives it very fine filtration, and returns this clean oil to the sump. Some bypass filters will even absorb a small amount of water. The pressure drop across a bypass filter element is so great that these filters cannot be used for full flow. (I know--one time I put a set of mis-marked bypass elements into the full-flow canister of an ALCO 2000 hp diesel. It didn't run--tripped on the low oil pressure cutout.)

I've read that a significant proportion of the "dirt" in used oil is caused by breakdown of some of the constituents of the oil. Synthetic oil doesn't breakdown as readily. There are lots of other reasons for oil to need to be changed--engine condition resulting in how fast the oil gets puked up, quality of the base oil and the additive package, driving habits, etc.

Ken

 

[TooSlick]

The primary reason why cheap petroleum oil must be changed frequently is that it breaks down
from heat and oxidation, and the minimal amount of additives used are quickly depleted. The best synthetic (PAO/Ester) basestocks are much more resistant to degradation and are formulated using more robust additive chemistries. You will often see TBN's in the 11-12+ range for the top tier synthetics (Amsoil/Redline/Mobil Delvac 1, etc). In addition to this, the higher film strength of synthetics gives you a better piston ring seal, so fewer contaminents enter the crankcase. This is what allows you to safely run the longer drain intervals.

In the specific case of Amsoil, they have also developed high efficiency air/oil filters and by-pass filters to help keep the oil clean over long drains ....

TooSlick

 

[TooSlick]

I should add ....you can take a cheap petro oil and cook it on the stove for several hours and turn it into tar, even though there is no "dirt" in it. Do this with Mobil 1 and it may darken by a shade or two, but that's about it ....

TooSlick

 

[metroplex]

Has anyone done the stove trick with the latest Group II+ dino oils?

 

[msparks]

quote:

---

Originally posted by metroplex:
A common synth vs non-synth argument is that synthetic oil still gets dirty just like dino oil, so an extended oil interval is just poppycock.

But what if we changed the oil filters? I mean, they're designed to filter out all but the smallest of dirt particles. WOuldn't changing the oil filters periodically throughout, say a 5000 mile interval, benefit the oil and engine?

---

Hence the theory behind by-pass filtration.

If you think about it using better filtration will allow both conventional and synthetics to last longer.

By Keeping the oil clean you allow the additives and the basestock to work less and lubricate more. Obviously if you use synthetics in this regard you will even have more benifit.

 

[metroplex]

Now can you explain bypass filtration?

and where I can get a kit?

 

[LarryM]

To Metroplex on By Pass Filters:

On question one, see the explanations above.

On question two, you have several options:

1. The toilet paper guys - Frantz and Gulf Coast Filters. Don't laugh, they work.

2. For a nicer, professional unit that doesn't require element changes so frequently - see the Racor LFS800 series, or the NTZ models.

3. Amsoil makes two models, and single unit, and a dual unit with the full flow and bypass on a common head. I don't quite understand how the dual gets any oil to go through the bypass...

4. There are some more expensive units aimed primarily at big trucks, Puradyn, Premo Plus, and others. These require more space for mounting, etc.

 

[RalphPWood]

Most of Gulf Coast submicronic bypass filters go to the US government to reduce waste of natural resources. They are used mostly by USAF and US Army National Guard. Cape Canaveral has been ordering the Gulf Coast filters on new equipment factory installed. North Carolina has Gulf Coast filters on all of their ferry boats. Shell oil uses a lot of them on offshore rigs. General Motors is factory installing the GM - 01 part # 1507 1671 when the government requires them.
I brought back the Motor Guard submicronic bypass filter of Manteca California. It's my personal favorite small filter. They have been around since 1966. I like to use it with the PermaCool sandwich adapter. The Motor Guard is the easiest to change of the TP filters. I change it every 4,000 miles on my Camry and Subaru 4 cylinder cars. The Camry uses synthetic, the Subaru uses conventional.
You can go farther between changes with synthetic oil if you don't mind a higher wear rate. When I started using the Frantz in 1963 we didn't have synthetic oil. We managed somehow to get by

Multi grade oils were no good in those days. We used single wt oil. We didn't drain oil. We changed the toilet paper and added a qt of oil every 2,000 miles.
You might find the following interesting:

"EnviroSense
Department of Defense
Pollution Prevention Technical Library

Bypass Filter for Vehicle Motor Oil Introduction:
Gasoline and diesel fueled internal combustion engines require
lubricating oil to reduce friction and dissipate heat. The lubricating oil must be changed once the oil's effectiveness diminishes. Lubricating effectiveness generally does not deteriorate in high-quality oils, but what does occur is contamination of the oil with particles and a breakdown of the
lubricating oil's additive package. The additive package, which can be 50 percent of the oil's volume is responsible for maintaining pH and preventing deterioration of the oil. Bypass filters are designed to remove smaller particulate than would normally be removed by the engine's normal filter so that oil changes are not necessary. Oil added during filter changing, and to replace burned oil, is normally sufficient to replenish the oil's additive package."

Ralph

 

[jjbula]

How much do these bypass setups cost and how expensive is the media?

 

[msparks]

Now that all depends.

Some By-pass systems are relively inexpensive, but the media is quite expensive.

some By-pass kits are high in price, but the media is really cheap(A roll of TP for instance)

Actually to evauate you want to determine your ROI(Return on investment) over a period of time the intial cost will be high, but say over 5 years and 100,000 miles it will average out.

There are over 20 different kinds of bypass systems.

I Sell 2 that are made by Amsoil. One is a single filter setup that you hook into your oil sending unit, with a return line either to your oil pan or valve cover.

The other (dual) system has an adapter that hooks up to your current filter location and instead of use the factory filter on the block, both the by-pass filter and the FF filter are mounted together side-by-side.

 

[RalphPWood]

I am a dealer of bypass filters. I haven't always been active. I started with the Frantz oil filter in 1963. I paid 29.95 for it and used it over 30 years before I retired it. I didn't count the rolls of toilet paper I used in it.
I found out about the Motor Guard submicronic bypass filter in 1966. I liked it better and signed up as a dealer. They also sold for 29.95. My oldest filter still in use is a Motor Guard over 30 years old. They are die cast aluminum. Some time in the seventies they were beefed up and coated with epoxy. The 1/8" ports were changed to 1/4" ports. They started marketing them as submicronic compressed air filters. They also used toilet paper. Now they use a special element.
I found out about the military buying the Gulf Coast bypass filter that uses toilet paper. I started selling them. I like to use the PermaCool sandwich adapter that I get from Jegs High Performance at www.jegs.com.
I called Motor Guard and told them to send me some lube oil filters. They said we don't sell lube oil filters. I said you do now. I tossed the internal parts designed for 1 1/2" IO core elements and had delrin parts machined to take the common 1 5/6 ID toilet paper. I added an orifice that can be removed when filtering diesel fuel. It has turned into an expensive lube oil filter for me, but people like it because there is no spillage when changing it. It is also so precision made that it doesn't leak. Motor Guard didn't make large filters. For larger engines they used more filters in parallel. This makes for a very effective filter for diesel engines but the additional fittings make it very expensive. The big Gulf Coast filter that takes big roll paper towels makes more sense for huge engines. The reason the US government is buying the Gulf Coast filters is they like big strong filters that use economical and readily available elements. Gulf Coast makes the filters out of hydraulic cylinder tubing. The lid is about 5 lbs of 1/2" plate. The little Gulf Coast filters are made of glass filled nylon.
I try to give people choices. I don't like to tell people what filter they should buy. The initial cost wouldn't be as important as the cost of the elements. When you are dealing with something that may last a lifetime. A complete toilet paper filter with fittings and hose is somewhere around 165.00.

Ralph

 

[pgtr]

Metroplex,

What I've always 'heard' is that you can often extend the drain interval w/ synth but that you should check the oil 'color' and if it has notably darkened, just change the filter.

E.g. instead of say a 5K oil/filter change w/ dino do a 5K filter only change w/ synth if it's darkened and of course a full oil/filter change at say 10K. This is but an example and I'm not specifically advocating synth or advocating extended drain intervals. I'm actually fairly ambivalent about synths and only use it limited/selectively in 1 or 2 of my various applications. (I think the latest API spec dinos are plenty good enough for most of my needs).

 

[alexiskai]

BTW, we're also talking bypass filtration under Car and Truck Engine Oil in the topic "The switching over process...???"

 

[deepsquat]

metroplex: check out this link http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000140 results of my 30000 mmile run on mobile 1 with a Gulf Coast bypass filter ...I think I could have went indefinatly with 3000 mile filter changeouts and 1 quart top off!
I am now running Mobile Delvac ! and am planning on 5000 mile filter changes...with testing

 

[Gary Allan]

deep squat,

What are you running Delvac in? Just curious. Does Delvac serve the general motoring public better than regular Mobil 1? I've viewed the XM site many times and explored the commercial/industrial lines ..but never moved to purchase.

Larry M.
"3. Amsoil makes two models, and single unit, and a dual unit with the full flow and bypass on a common head. I don't quite understand how the dual gets any oil to go through the bypass..."

It should work just like any other parallel setup for water or electricity. The Ammeters of old were just parallel shunts that routed a fraction of the alt output through the meter ..the electricity still flowed even though the alt wire was MEGA sized in comparison. Same with a water pipe setup. As long as you are not overloading the supply (like having a 4" watermain fed by a 1" pipe) the flow will split. That is, if you had both filters commonly supplied and they just drained on the ground via seperate outputs - with no back pressue ..there probably would be no flow through the more restrictive filter since you've exceeded the supply's ability to keep up with demand and it will go to the path of least resistance.

Both filters see the same supply pressure ...just like two parallel resistors in a simple DC circuit see the same voltage (pressure)..the flow (current) is just divided proportional to the respective "choking effect" of the filters.

Another practical example would be if you run dual outlets out of a common cat exhaust....if you have one 1.5" outlet and one 2.25" outlet. The square inch cross section is basically double for the 2.5 ..so it should have double the flow of the 1.5" (if I did my math right)...so two parts of the flow would exit via the 2.25" pipe ..and one part via the 1.5" pipe. This example, btw o/t, shows you how that "dual" exhaust is just a "show" feature in a common cat exhaust since one pipe of the appropriate size is all that is needed for increased flow.

 

[deepsquat]

deep squat,

What are you running Delvac in? Just curious. Does Delvac serve the general motoring public better than regular Mobil 1? I've viewed the XM site many times and explored the commercial/industrial lines ..but never moved to purchase.
The Delvac 1 has a much stronger additive package then the Mobile `1 does. I learned about it at www.tdiclub.com many people on that forum run the Delvac 1 in thier turbo diesel engines for 10000 mile intervals ...without a bypass...and the sump in those cars (to my under standing) is no bigger then the one in my Nissan Altima ...about 4 quarts so I figure my gasser will hardly strain the ouil at all.

 

[TooSlick]

DeepSquat,

The TDI is actually very easy on oil, due to the low combustion gas temps and the very low fuel consumption. This reduces oxidation and the amount of acidic gases that get into the crankcase. You will see much more rapid degradation of the oil in a gasser, particularly this Nissan engine. Expect to see much higher levels of oxidation/nitration as well as more TBN depletion after the same number of miles.

Delvac 1 is very good stuff, but you aren't going to be able to run it as long in the Nissan - without a bypass filter - as you would a TDI ....

TS