Let's talk BMW's

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: MCompact
I find automotive appliances such as the Corolla to be much too dangerous for my tastes; I would almost certainly die of boredom if I had to drive one on a daily basis...

Ditto!

I need a car that does what I tell it and tells me what it's doing. Most cars these days seem to leave at least one of those boxes un-ticked...


This is precisely why I love my Jeep. It doesn't drive like an appliance, has good road feel, responsive drivetrain, good steering and brake feel, etc. Yet, it doesn't have overly high handling limits, so you can challenge yourself a bit when you find some empty backroads late at night, as insanely high speeds aren't required to find its limits (although when tight corners aren't involved, it's surprising planted even with a good bit of speed).

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: Trav

Quote:
contracts were signed in Japan and that Honda retained rights to produce Rovers in Asia.

If BMW wanted to make a deal with Honda i would expect they would seal the deal in Japan.
But thats far from..
Quote:
The German suits did not read the contracts very well and had to tuck tail between their legs and go to Japan to seal the deal.

Which is IMO a complete fabrication. Are we to believe the extensive legal team of BMW is incapable of reading a contract properly? That kite wont fly.



Sorry. That's the way it went down. BMW execs fully expected to retain all of Honda's manufacturing capacity and to have everything signed off in Munich, but Honda had protected itself. Ed Wallace is on the air live right now so we won't get an immediate response but I will find the article.

It is still my opinion that at the very least, BMW wanted Honda out of production in Europe and at most it may have been a gamble to gain interest in Honda itself. A $6 billion gambit that failed. The only bright spot being MINI.

 

[andyd]

My experience is limited to E28s. Specifically, the 528e. I bought my first in '96 with 150k miles on it. I drove the Borman 6 for 12 yrs and retired it in '08 with 350k miles. I maintained it in my driveway, using used parts and after market World Pac parts ordered on line. As with any old car, it was never 100% perfect.BUT it was reliable to the extent that it never broke down bad enough to require a tow or "professional " help. My daily drivers are a pair of 88s and I have 2 parts cars to harvest parts from. So far Ive yet to get further into the M20 engines other than periodic timing belt changes and other routine maintenamce. On the Borman 6 the engine transmission, alternator , and main pump are all original. The cars run and drive fine. Repair issues are mostly age related and normal stuff. Ther is a good forum for support. I see no reason to go to a more modern car, my super etas are perfect for what I use them for.

My son had a complete rat of an 86 528e for college. The car had been totaled twice . I hammered out the dents replaced the mangled stuff with pieces cut from a junker. The car drove fine and would get over 30 mpg on the highway. His current car is an 83 533i that goes very well and we take it to car meets in Toronto and NC every summer.

 

[Vaca]

Just thought I'd share on this topic. Seems like there are quite a few BMW haters out there. I guess there will always be at least some who dislike certain things.

Perception is often different than reality, and it seems like there are a lot out there with a negative perception of BMWs who may not know as much as they think they do.

I love all cars, from the earliest Model T, through the great racers of the 30's...Alfas, Bugattis...great American cars from the 50's, muscle cars....even cars from the 70 s and 80 s to some extent. Ford Pintos and Chevy Vegas are interesting and likeable in some ways.

I currently own three cars that are representative of a few cars that have been mentioned many times in this thread: a '93 Camry wagon with 254,000 miles, a 1988 BMW 325i (e30) convertible with nearly 300,000 miles, and a 2004 BMW 530i (e60) with 132,000 miles. I do all the work (except tires) on all of my cars and have since I was a kid. I believe I have some pretty good experience.

Undoubtedly the Camry was built to last, and he sure has for me. It's been both durable and reliable. Durable as in original struts, exhaust, engine, tranny, even the cv joints, very few creaks or groans...still feels solid. It's been reliable as in it's only stranded me once when the ignition coil went out.

Both of my BMWs are built with at least as much durability and reliability of my Camry and numerous other family member's Accords, Camrys, Civics, etc.

For instance, just last week I changed the front struts on my '88 BMW, they were original, and everything came apart as easy as can be...the control arm and tie rod ball joints (also original and good).

...post is getting long...

2004 BMW has been totally trouble free as in no problems at all.

As much as I love my old Camry...the driving experience of the two BMWs is far, far superior...not even close.

 

[Vaca]

And a couple of other little examples...Last winter while doing the timing belt on the '88....the original dist. cap and rotor were on it...and it ran perfectly fine...a 23 year old cap and rotor with nearly 300,000 miles....durable?

My newer BMW hasn't been around long enough to prove it's durabilty, but based on what it looks like under the car and under the hood...it is built to a very high degree of quality, from the quality of the fasteners to the aluminum sub frames to the stainless exhaust, to brake calipers, fuel lines, etc.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: andyd
My experience is limited to E28s. Specifically, the 528e. I bought my first in '96 with 150k miles on it. I drove the Borman 6 for 12 yrs and retired it in '08 with 350k miles. I maintained it in my driveway, using used parts and after market World Pac parts ordered on line. As with any old car, it was never 100% perfect.BUT it was reliable to the extent that it never broke down bad enough to require a tow or "professional " help. My daily drivers are a pair of 88s and I have 2 parts cars to harvest parts from. So far Ive yet to get further into the M20 engines other than periodic timing belt changes and other routine maintenamce. On the Borman 6 the engine transmission, alternator , and main pump are all original. The cars run and drive fine. Repair issues are mostly age related and normal stuff. Ther is a good forum for support. I see no reason to go to a more modern car, my super etas are perfect for what I use them for.

My son had a complete rat of an 86 528e for college. The car had been totaled twice . I hammered out the dents replaced the mangled stuff with pieces cut from a junker. The car drove fine and would get over 30 mpg on the highway. His current car is an 83 533i that goes very well and we take it to car meets in Toronto and NC every summer.


I drove a 1987 535is for several years; the last I heard it was on its fifth or sixth owner and was needing a cylinder head gasket- at 300,000 miles. I may yet buy an E28 M5.

 

[45ACP]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: Trav


They may have also wanted 4 wheel drive technology for their upcoming X models more than how Honda manufactures engines or cars.


If that were the case, one might think that the X3, X5, or X6 would be a bit more capable off road like a Range Rover....but they are not.


Caution: 4:20 to 4:30 is.. painful for we BMW lovers.



Caution: 4:20 to 4:30 is.. painful for we BMW lovers.


BMW has had some screw-ups. being on the 10 best car list for two decades is not one of them.

BMW and Honda have equal amount of "10 best" engines.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: 45ACP
Caution: 4:20 to 4:30 is.. painful for we BMW lovers.

The very fact of the X6's existence is painful for BMW lovers. The video reveals the reasons for that pain, which IMO is quite a good thing.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: Vaca
Just thought I'd share on this topic. Seems like there are quite a few BMW haters out there. I guess there will always be at least some who dislike certain things.

Perception is often different than reality, and it seems like there are a lot out there with a negative perception of BMWs who may not know as much as they think they do.


I accept that. I don't think I'm "hating" on BMW. I just have an opinion on a questionable decision they made. But my opinion really makes sense. I reject that BMW wanted Rover for it's 4WD technology. The X3,X5, and X6's AWD has more in common with the CR-V, Pilot, and Crosstour than any Defender or Range Rover from the '90s. Plus BMW did not need to purchase Honda to copy it's torque-vectoring AWD so again they didn't get anything there.

Purchasing Rover by itself? No good.
Purchasing Rover with Honda attached? Now we are getting somewhere. It affords BMW an opportunity to escape it's relatively narrow niche. But without Honda, Rover is not really in a position to design a line of fuel efficient, reliable, affordable cars. (you gotta' think of Honda in the early '90s when they were quite possibly the most fuel efficient and one of the more reliable vehicle manufacturers availiable)
With Honda, the Rover marque was a potential competitor with Volkswagen with it's small cars and a definite competitor to Audi with it's Legend based 800-series.

BMW saw the 800-series (Legend) being sold in The United States. After the disaster that was the SD-1 in US sales and Rover is making a successful inroad to the States. Of course they had to change the name (Sterling) and it still had the familiar English electrical gremlins (seat heater and dash fires anyone?) but the powertrain and chassis was well sorted and the rest of the car was improving. The 600-series (Accord) was actually becoming a legitimate compact executive car.

Then there was the interiors. Few can fault the English's use of wood and leather in a vehicle interior. They are typically very good at that. The 800 and 600 series seemed to carry on that trait. I'm actually suprised how dowdy and grey a similar year Accord's interior is compared to the 600-series. You'd think they would have gotten something from the English.

The BMW-enthusiast gets offended when I suggest BMW's real purpose in purchasing Rover was to gain Honda. BMW did not want Honda technology and building expertise for anything badged with a blue and white "propeller". They wanted a sub-brand to expand their line. BMW would still be BMW. The lesser marque would flood the company's coffers and further allow BMW to develop new models. Unfortunately for them, Honda had well protected itself in it's merger with Rover and BMW ended up with just Rover. A dying English marque that without Honda, had little to offer but loss.

It's just an opinion. My other opinion is that it would have been a successful gamble if Rover had come with 20% of Honda. That would have been good for the English carmaker and BMW. Honda would have had to buy itself out or play along and possibly would not have had one of the largest selling passenger cars (Accord) in the '90s...at least not with the Honda "H" badge on it.

 

[VicVinegar]

Curse this thread for reminding me how much I want a ZHP 330i. Or a M Coupe. Or any number of other BMWs. Maybe when I stop driving 90 miles a day for commuting.

 

[45ACP]

Lets address a few things that are one-off-center to this issue, since Acura and Honda were legitimately compared (not in same class when new; ARE in same class, used.)

1. Anyone remember the Acura Legend called a Sterling 826 and 827 in the US? I have always been intrigued, and would take a look atone if it popped up. They only cost~$2000-$3000 anyway. They are from 1987... ? .. what can you tell me about this car.

Quote:
In 1989, the fastback was added alongside the sedan, coinciding with the introduction of a new, larger, Honda engine and was called the 827 (1989 trims S, SL, SL Limited or SLi; 1990 trims S, Si, SL or SLi; 1991 trims Si or SLi).


2. BMW put the engine in the Mclaren F1.

3. "Mini Coopers" are now being called "BMW Mini Coopers."

4. BMW now owns and manufactures Rolls Royce.

5. Honda and BMW have the same amount of engines on the Wards 10 Best list, and both have cars in the 10 Best about equally (the 3-series is BMW's best car, its been ruined now. Also, the M5.)

6. Agreed that 110MPH in a BMW feels like 60... however, redlining a car to get it to move has to be gotten used to. That said, Acura Integra (perhaps RSX its successor) are "fun," yes. Id look Integra but thats a small college type of car.

Thoughts?

 

[Trav]

Quote:
Sorry. That's the way it went down

I cant find anything to verify that story, so until something is posted i reject this as nothing more than rumour or fabrication.
Quote:
But my opinion really makes sense. I reject that BMW wanted Rover for it's 4WD technology. The X3,X5, and X6's AWD has more in common with the CR-V, Pilot, and Crosstour than any Defender or Range Rover from the '90s

Reject it if you want but there is more than enough information to confirm BMW did use a lot of technology gained from Land Rover.
No one said it was the primary reason for buying Rover just one aspect.
Your opinion is just that an opinion where or not it makes sense depends on if someone shares your opinion.
Personallly i wouldn't put Honda on the level of BMW at any time.

At least with the Germans buying up English car companies it keeps them out of the hands of the Japanese and improves the European economy.
Of course BMW wanted to curb Honda in Europe and rightfully so.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: 45ACP
Lets address a few things that are one-off-center to this issue, since Acura and Honda were legitimately compared (not in same class when new; ARE in same class, used.)

1. Anyone remember the Acura Legend called a Sterling 826 and 827 in the US? I have always been intrigued, and would take a look atone if it popped up. They only cost~$2000-$3000 anyway. They are from 1987... ? .. what can you tell me about this car.

Quote:
In 1989, the fastback was added alongside the sedan, coinciding with the introduction of a new, larger, Honda engine and was called the 827 (1989 trims S, SL, SL Limited or SLi; 1990 trims S, Si, SL or SLi; 1991 trims Si or SLi).



It wasn't entirely an Acura Legend. It still had English electrical components and the assorted gremlins that go along with that. Don't be suprised if you are driving at freeway speed at night and every light in the car spontaneously turns itself. Or an occasional dash fire...that sort of thing. But it's also not entirely an Acura in the interior materials. Japanese cars from the era were purposeful but very plastic and kinda' funky. German cars from the era were best described as "antiseptic". Even when the starting template was Japanese switchgear and layout, the English still managed to make a stab at a proper interior in the Sterling with the use of leather and wood with plush carpet.

Do try to remember, this was the '80s. That's actually pretty nice compared to the usual Japanese "TIE Fighter" space controls of that time

 

[GhostFlame]

I have an 02 X5 3.0. Every month it's something else. I spend about $2500/year in repairs that I can't do myself. I do a lot ob this car myself but, when you get involved with electrical sensors, computers and such Ziggy my independent mech has to take over.

That being said I love the car. It's paid for so I'm driving a $50000 car for a little over $200 per month. It is not the most reliable car I've owned by far. I need an suv for my work and none of the rest put a smile on my face like my x5. I have 144,750 miles on it and I still get compliments on it's looks and I like driving it.

I will buy another BMW when the x5 goes, but this time I'm going to tow a Honda behind it for when it breaks down, just kidding.

.... no I'm not.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: GhostFlame
I have an 02 X5 3.0. Every month it's something else. I spend about $2500/year in repairs that I can't do myself. I do a lot ob this car myself but, when you get involved with electrical sensors, computers and such Ziggy my independent mech has to take over.

That being said I love the car. It's paid for so I'm driving a $50000 car for a little over $200 per month. It is not the most reliable car I've owned by far. I need an suv for my work and none of the rest put a smile on my face like my x5. I have 144,750 miles on it and I still get compliments on it's looks and I like driving it.

I will buy another BMW when the x5 goes, but this time I'm going to tow a Honda behind it for when it breaks down, just kidding.

.... no I'm not.


I pulled out my spreadsheets and checked the maintenance/repair costs of my four newest vehicles over the last 15,000 miles(I purposely omitted the 1975 2002 since it is in the process of being restored/upgraded).

Here they are:

2007 Mazdaspeed 3, 97,680 miles- $1351(includes $795 for purchase of four UHP all-season tires).

2004 BMW X3 2.5, 127,800 miles- $365

1999 Jeep Wrangler 4.0, 109,800 miles- $762

1995 BMW 318ti, 130,600 miles- $1012(includes $417 for purchase of four summer/track tires)

It essentially costs $300 per month to maintain all four vehicles- but since I don't have any car payments I'm way ahead way of the game. From a reliability standpoint I think I need to tow the X3 behind the Mazda...

 

[Y_K]

I had a 1991 Z1 many years ago and recently totalled an X5 (2009), replaced by the Lexus LX. X5 made it up to 59k miles with no significant problems, was a pleasure to drive and my wife misses it. Off-road it definitely was not a Rover, the Lexus is much more capable. Other than that was an excellent vehicle with no problems. Got hit by a drunk, and luckily, nobody inside at the moment of impact.
Z1 was out of this world. I was younger, more ambitious and more stupid. The main purpose of the ownership was to play with the fabulous doors and raise the eye-brows of my German banker neighbour, which was achieved with great success. This verfluchten savage foreigner drives the Z1! Although, when I needed a car to go for a rock concert in Amsterdam I borrowed my American friend's Ford Granada: much more humaine ride for the longer haul. I lived in Pullach by Munich then. I was never a collector of cars, so I sold it when I left the country. It was 86k DM, while the Lexus LS just showed up for 41k DM. Those were the times..
Got burnt by Mercedes E and R a few years ago enough to never buy any again. Want a Carrera S, but I am getting too old for this.
I wish any of the Germans were as dependable as a lowly Panther though, or a Panther had a German precision steering and suspension and the Mercedes Drivedynamicseat

 

[Audios]

BMWs are expensive yes, but compared to other high end marques theyre not so bad. We often recommend early 2000s 3,5 and 7s (e38) to customers looking for a luxury car thats reliable and wont kill them. We have multiple customers who own multiple BMWs with over 150k, one customer has an 88 535is with 202k, an 88 M5 with 177, an 88 325i convert with 335k, and his wife has an e30 325ix with 190. All of them mint and do not leak a drop. This is besides his M technic e30 convert with 44k and Dinan turbo 88 M5 with 60k. We also see beaters at over 200k that still run great, although they need about 4k in work. Like stated, you cant let these cars go. Its easier to attack $500 in repairs at a time as opposed to a 3500 estimate after a few years of no repairs.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: andyd
My experience is limited to E28s. Specifically, the 528e. I bought my first in '96 with 150k miles on it...


We had a 528e abandoned at the shop I used to work at.

The owner neglected the timing belt. Broken timing belt = head full of bent valves. Exhast valve cost us $40 apiece at that time. We charged $60 apiece for them. Add that to the cost of the timing belt, head set, machine work, labor, fluids, etc...

For whatever reason, the owner had discarded the fan shroud as well. BMW dealer located one for us and it took us a week or so to get it.

The customer signed the estimate and never came back for the car. My boss ended up with it.

It was at the time an oddity for me. An OHC gasoline engine with something like a 4000 rpm redline. It was terribly slow stoplight to stoplight compared to a similar size engined 2.8 V6 Grand Prix. But then you'd drive it on the freeway and look down and you were at 85mph. How did "slow boat Sally" here end up at 85 mph????!!! And when was the last time I filled this thing up? Is the gas gauge broken?

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
It was at the time an oddity for me. An OHC gasoline engine with something like a 4000 rpm redline. It was terribly slow stoplight to stoplight compared to a similar size engined 2.8 V6 Grand Prix. But then you'd drive it on the freeway and look down and you were at 85mph. How did "slow boat Sally" here end up at 85 mph????!!! And when was the last time I filled this thing up? Is the gas gauge broken?

Most BMWs are more or less like that compared to their peers.

The normally aspirated M cars even more so...

 

[MCompact]

The "eta" engine found in the 528e and 325e was designed to develop power at lower engine speeds than regular BMW engines. BMW phased them out by the late '80s. Not a bad engine, but not what most enthusiasts expected at the time. Me, I love the M42 in my ti; it comes alive at 4000 rpm...