Why do so many people want to run 0 weight oils?

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Texan4Life
Quote:
It is during that time getting to operating temps the most wear occurs, the 0W-xx oil will protect best during that time.


this is what I can't wrap my head around.

If a light weight oil provides the best protection why not run that light of a weight at operating temperature too?


At the engines operating temps use the grade the OM suggests for the Ambient temp range you plan on using the vehicle in. If only one grade of oil is suggested for all operating temps [some newer cars show only one grade] then use that.

Dr. Haas explains it a lot better than I can, if you have some time read is article.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
Hmmm....

I think Gary is saying: (correct me if I'm wrong

)
1 - you've got a certain mass (engine block, pistons, crank, oil!) that needs to be warmed up.
2 - The burning of fuel in that particular engine generates a certain amount of thermal energy.
3 - It takes that thermal energy a certain amount of time to get that mass to operating temp.
4 - viscosity of the oil is not a factor in this.
5 - engine design may not be a factor in this.

Adding an oil-to-coolant heat exchanger (changing the design!) will make things better / warm up the engine & oil quicker.

Why am I using a 0W oil?

I fail to see what parasites have to do with this though....

Quote:
4 - viscosity of the oil is not a factor in this.


In my observations the visc has a minor impact on this. Different viscosity oils appear the same at different times in the process. Just take your aligned slide rule and shift it one way or the other. The part you slide is still the same length, just indexed differently.

Using a 40-70 doesn't significantly alter this time line. Using a 0w-10 doesn't significantly alter this time line. The internal ramps may have some dissimilar spans to them, but only to the point where they're separated by time.

I'm sure that there's some subset that one of the strata dwellers could cite.

An oil:coolant hex will (probably) result in a 30% reduction in time to temp/visc over the same engine without one. I don't know if it results in the shortening of the normal wear curve to the same degree. If additive activation is the reason, then probably. If part fitment is the cause, some but not too much. I imagine it's some combination of the two.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Truth is most engines are very tolerant of the oil grade used.
Having stated that, if for the sake of argument the optimum viscosity of an oil is 10cSt as represented by a 30wt at 100C then even the lightest oil that you can buy (Toyota 0W-20) is too thick at all temps until reaching 90C (194F).

Running 0W-XX oils simply gives you better lubrication during the critcal warm-up period and in most applications that can be as much as 90% of an engines operating time even in the warm summer months.


I partially agree with you. If I could buy an oil that had a 10.7cSt from 32F to 300F I would be the first in line to get it. But I won't sacrafice HTHS to do it. If it weren't for that one factor I would run a 0w50 in my GN if there was such a thing.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: daman
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I don't want a 0WXX not in warm weather anyway. Most of them are group III and you got to wonder about the Noak and extra VII it might have versus a similar 5W- or 10W-. I still like a 5W- or even 10W- in warm weather/climates.

I tow 10,000+ lbs(my backhoe)in the summer with my 225,000 mile z71 on a diet of 0w30 you going to tell me thats not severe service? it's still a 30w @ op temp!

i would also bet there not mostly grpIII not with the PP you see.


Out of those 225,000 miles, how many were on the 0w30 and how many were towing a backhoe. I have a feeling you're only telling us part of the story here.


I know you're deep into the throttle when towing but it's still a low powered V8, power per cylinder is pretty low. You many not be working the oil harder than a 4 banger trying to pull a 3,200lb car around every day.

 

[GMorg]

BuickGN wrote:
"...I would run a 0w50 in my GN if there was such a thing."

Here is one example:

http://www.eneos.us/product/2

 

[tig1]

I started a thread yesterday on the pumpability test of oil wts. None have responded so I thought I would bring it up here, as it does have to do with 0 wt oils and temperature. This was a Q&A on XM web site, so here is the link.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/Moto...umpability.aspx

 

[daman]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: daman
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I don't want a 0WXX not in warm weather anyway. Most of them are group III and you got to wonder about the Noak and extra VII it might have versus a similar 5W- or 10W-. I still like a 5W- or even 10W- in warm weather/climates.

I tow 10,000+ lbs(my backhoe)in the summer with my 225,000 mile z71 on a diet of 0w30 you going to tell me thats not severe service? it's still a 30w @ op temp!

i would also bet there not mostly grpIII not with the PP you see.


Out of those 225,000 miles, how many were on the 0w30 and how many were towing a backhoe. I have a feeling you're only telling us part of the story here.


I know you're deep into the throttle when towing but it's still a low powered V8, power per cylinder is pretty low. You many not be working the oil harder than a 4 banger trying to pull a 3,200lb car around every day.


The truck has seen a hard life of towing i bought it from a building contractor,and the point i made was 10 miles or 110,000 miles a 0/30 will get the job done with no issues.

that means increased bearing load last time i checked

 

[JAG]

As Gary alluded to, do not make the assumption that wear is greater during the warm-up phase solely because the oil is thicker than it is when warmed up. Anti-wear additives perform best in hot oil, combustion byproducts corrode less in hot oil, and engine parts (pistons/cylinders particularly) mate the best in a hot engine. Oil viscosity is just one of many relevant variables. It's the one that seems most obvious which is probably why it gets overblown in discussions about wear during warm up.

 

[barlowc]

I'm sure many have seen this, but it's an interesting video clip on 0W-xx oils with Bill Maxwell, the "Father of Mobil 1".

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Videos/TV.aspx?videoID=47

There's also two interesting video clips at http://www.gf-5.com/, one with Minoru Yamashita of Toyota and another with Jeff Jetter of Honda. (Look on the lower-right side of the page.)

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: daman
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I don't want a 0WXX not in warm weather anyway. Most of them are group III and you got to wonder about the Noak and extra VII it might have versus a similar 5W- or 10W-. I still like a 5W- or even 10W- in warm weather/climates.

I tow 10,000+ lbs(my backhoe)in the summer with my 225,000 mile z71 on a diet of 0w30 you going to tell me thats not severe service? it's still a 30w @ op temp!

i would also bet there not mostly grpIII not with the PP you see.


Out of those 225,000 miles, how many were on the 0w30 and how many were towing a backhoe. I have a feeling you're only telling us part of the story here.


I know you're deep into the throttle when towing but it's still a low powered V8, power per cylinder is pretty low. You many not be working the oil harder than a 4 banger trying to pull a 3,200lb car around every day.


Hey Buick! How`ve you been? So how`s that GN doing?

 

[sangyup81]

The 0W has nothing to do with weight. The 0W comes from having a certain velocity in a cold cranking test at a certain temperature.

I really hate the oil rating system. Wish they would change it

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: JAG
As Gary alluded to, do not make the assumption that wear is greater during the warm-up phase solely because the oil is thicker than it is when warmed up. Anti-wear additives perform best in hot oil, combustion byproducts corrode less in hot oil, and engine parts (pistons/cylinders particularly) mate the best in a hot engine. Oil viscosity is just one of many relevant variables. It's the one that seems most obvious which is probably why it gets overblown in discussions about wear during warm up.


The benefits of running the thinest oil possible at start-up temps goes beyond minimizing wear. That's where you're going to get your biggest fuel economy and engine performance advantage.
Once an engine's oil is up to temperature most of the advantage of the higher VI 0W-XX has tapered off.
The much talked about advantage of using a 20wt vs a 30wt to save fuel is acheived with a viscosity reduction of only 10 to 20 percent at operating temp. The advantage of the High VI 0W-XX oils is that they will be typically 50% lighter even at room temps and as much as 150% lighter at the the freezing point (32F). Depending on how much of an engine's (oil) life is spent operating below full operating temperature that advantage alone can be very dramatic indeed.

 

[SpitfireS]

Are there any known controlled tests, showing a difference in time-to-temp between 0W-xx and 10W-xx (with "xx" being the same)?

When the oil is cold, would the oil pump bypass be in relief?
If it is, a thinner cold oil would result in more oil flowing through the engine, transporting more heat around, getting faster to operating temp.
The internal combustion engine isn't very efficient, what is does best is produce heat.
Thinner faster flowing oil transports it better.

Quote from Gary Allen in another 0W oil post by ZZman:
Quote:
I tend to think in terms of "flows easier" vs. "flows quicker". At times that can mean "flows more".


Personally I did notice a difference between 5W and 0W oils, both 30 weights.
With the 0W oil the engine runs noticeable smoother just after a cold start.

I'll defend my 0W oil

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: daman
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: daman
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I don't want a 0WXX not in warm weather anyway. Most of them are group III and you got to wonder about the Noak and extra VII it might have versus a similar 5W- or 10W-. I still like a 5W- or even 10W- in warm weather/climates.

I tow 10,000+ lbs(my backhoe)in the summer with my 225,000 mile z71 on a diet of 0w30 you going to tell me thats not severe service? it's still a 30w @ op temp!

i would also bet there not mostly grpIII not with the PP you see.


Out of those 225,000 miles, how many were on the 0w30 and how many were towing a backhoe. I have a feeling you're only telling us part of the story here.


I know you're deep into the throttle when towing but it's still a low powered V8, power per cylinder is pretty low. You many not be working the oil harder than a 4 banger trying to pull a 3,200lb car around every day.


The truck has seen a hard life of towing i bought it from a building contractor,and the point i made was 10 miles or 110,000 miles a 0/30 will get the job done with no issues.

that means increased bearing load last time i checked


Ok, did the previous owner run 0w30 exclusivey for it's whole life? I could switch my TL to a 0w-10 once it passes the 200,000 mile mark and I'm sure it would run fine for a while, but it doesn't mean the 0w-10 got it there.

Thanks for the education on the bearing load. My point was that high load is relative. There is something to be said for continuous high load, I'm not taking that away from you but depending on the year of your truck it may only be making 30hp per hole which is not exactly stressful. I know all about the high rpm and heat and all of that so no need to highlight more stuff.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: tig1
I started a thread yesterday on the pumpability test of oil wts. None have responded so I thought I would bring it up here, as it does have to do with 0 wt oils and temperature. This was a Q&A on XM web site, so here is the link.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/Moto...umpability.aspx


I've seen too many times how quickly most healthy engines get pressure and flow. I see some advantage of using the 0w even in hot climates, the quicker it can get to close to it's hot viscosity the better but IMO the tradeoff of a lower HTHS is not worth it. I've forgotten to hook up my turbo feed line and my windshield was covered in 20w-50 oil before I had released the starter. I've fired it up with the valvcovers off for diagnosis and flow is immediate (with 20w-50) out of the pushrods and the Buick V6 has one of the worst oiling systems ever.

 

[mechanicx]

All I'm saying is a 0W- is beneficial in cold weather, while a 5W- 10W- is beneficial in warm weather. When the temperatures in Summer are in 80s or hotter engine warm up is so fast and 10W- is not all that thick at those high ambient temps.

In high speed, hot weather driving my experience is the 5W have slightly higher oil consumption than the 10W-. You could probably get away with 0W20 in most engines short of running in hot weather on that track. But when it comes to Summer driving, I see no advantage to most of the fancy, expensive synthetic 0W's over a good 10W30 or 5W20 or whatever the heavier oil with lower viscosity spread that is recommended. Give me the least VII, highest HTHS and NOACK for warm weather driving.

I really liked what JAG had to say that it's not so much cold oil's high viscosity causing wear, but all the other factors associated with a cold engine. At some ambient temp lets say above 40-50F and hotter, a 0W isn't giving much advantage at start up and warm up and trading something at hot running.

 

[Steve S]

I read an article, even though I have no knowledge on if the info is fact or fiction but it sounds good so it must be correct!!!

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Are there any known controlled tests, showing a difference in time-to-temp between 0W-xx and 10W-xx (with "xx" being the same)?


Not that I'm aware of. Thicker oils (again we have a self correcting "phase shift" that confounds any absolute view) are harder to shear and therefore generate more heat due to friction. My thought is that under like conditions, a thinner oil shears easier/thinner and can conduct/convect heat easier.

..but that I think (under like conditions) would result in a different normalized temp and not a difference in time to temp. At least those were my observations.

Quote:
When the oil is cold, would the oil pump bypass be in relief?


How cold? How high a volume? How high is the starting visc due to the OEM requiring a 40 weight at operating temp? Lots of variables. I've seen some pushrod generic engines I've seen, the pressure never came off of the relief. Flow was totally variable based on visc. It wasn't common, but I've seen it.

If you're at -30C with a high visc oil with a higher volume pump (or even a common volume pump) ..probably. Doug Hillary finally connected the dots for me on why many Euro's have 30+lb bypass limits on their filters. It's because they may be up against pump relief for 15+ minutes and don't want most of their engine's life being spent with partially filtered oil.

Quote:
If it is, a thinner cold oil would result in more oil flowing through the engine, transporting more heat around, getting faster to operating temp.


...or soaking up/shunting/rejecting more heat at the same time. It's a "as it spreadeth ..it taketh away" view. Under the believe that it distributes it better, it would also dump it easier too. In the same rationale, you would have to say that thicker oils, while not as readily soaking up and distributing heat, don't allow it to escape as easily.

That's why I think it's a wash.

Quote:
Thinner faster flowing oil transports it better.


As opposed to thicker faster oil, I'll probably agree. The thing is, if you're not in relief, the oil flow rate is identical. You may have some intermediate velocity difference in how fast it reaches the pan, but it won't exceed the mean velocity of the pump, unless you such the pan dry and have the valve covers fill up with oil (don't laugh, some SBC's would do this).

If you are in relief, then the flow rate is slower ..and so is the dwell time ...slower alterations to bulk oil temps. Again, a wash.

Quote:
Personally I did notice a difference between 5W and 0W oils, both 30 weights.
With the 0W oil the engine runs noticeable smoother just after a cold start.


Quite possible.

Quote:
I'll defend my 0W oil

..and so you should, young man!! (visions of as if you just said "I respect my parents"

)

 

[daman]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN

Ok, did the previous owner run 0w30 exclusivey for it's whole life? I could switch my TL to a 0w-10 once it passes the 200,000 mile mark and I'm sure it would run fine for a while, but it doesn't mean the 0w-10 got it there.

Thanks for the education on the bearing load. My point was that high load is relative. There is something to be said for continuous high load, I'm not taking that away from you but depending on the year of your truck it may only be making 30hp per hole which is not exactly stressful. I know all about the high rpm and heat and all of that so no need to highlight more stuff.

Yea yea yea,, dude the point im making and this is my last post with you because you obviously don't get it is i don't know and don't care what the previous owner used ok!.....im saying a 030 works with out issue in heavy towing situations.

 

[demarpaint]

20 grade oils are working for Ford in Heavy Duty tow applications as well. The mfg's seem to have their acts together.