Why do many DRY STARTS, when an oil filter lasts so long?

[S2000driver]

My 2003 Element owner's manual recommends changing the oil filter every 20,000 miles under normal conditions. I've decided to change it once a year (about 10,000 miles). I use Mobil 1 synthetic oil in the viscosity recommended for my vehicle.

When I talk to other people, they think this is HERESY. (Except maybe my boss, who has a BMW that gets oil and filter changed every 15,000 miles with no complaints.)

If you aren't changing your filter every oil change and admit it to other people on an internet forum, GUARANTEED: you will get flamed. You'll be accused of being cheap, lazy, or maybe even a blind follower of people who want your car to expire prematurely. You'll even be accused of taking a shower and putting back on dirty clothes!

I say if a typical good quality oil filter is supposed to last as long as 20,000 miles according to the manufacturer, why change it every 3,000 like people insist?

I say in many circumstances, you may be needlessly spending perfectly good money and wearing out tools you could leave alone and get just as much life out of your engine.

Furthermore, by changing your oil filter more often than you need to, you are exposing your car to at least twice as many DRY STARTS as you need to. I sure can tell the added delay of the oil light going off and the engine quieting after an oil filter change.

Could you be causing more wear by changing your filter too often? Hmmmm...

Where is all this dirt and debris coming from on a modern vehicle anyway? I'm more concerned about getting out the small particle that AREN'T getting filtered. Why not get the full life out of the oil filter, especially the midlife when it's filtering the best?

BTW, people who think they get ALL the oil out when they drain and fill the crankcase and replace the oil are in for a big surprise

.


P.S. Here is my oil change schedule. Let the flaming begin!

1999 CR-V, 14,000 miles per year: Oil filter every year. Dino oil change every 3 months 5w30. Yearly cost: About $25.

2002 S2000, 7,500 miles per year: Oil filter every year, along with new Synthetic 10w30. Yearly cost: About $25.

2003 Element, 10,000+ miles per year: Oil filter every year, along with new Synthetic 0w20. Yearly cost: About $25.

 

[labman]

Good point. And this is from an every 3 months as God intended fanatic.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Up until a few years ago filter changes on most imports were every other oil change. So the idea of extending the filters life beyound the OCI is nothing new. I can not say I agree with it though!! Filters are so cheap that little is gained by extending the filter change interval. THe dry start situation can be reduced with primeing of the filter. I have my doubts about dry start situation due to oil changes. If this was the case then UOA would show the increased wear.

If you changed the filter every 5000-7000 miles or 6 months wich ever comes first you would add a whole $2 for the extra filter and what ever a half quart of the oil being used cost to prime and top off! So lets just call it an extra $4 total so instead of $25 it would cost you $29 a year. Changeing the filter helps to reduce insoulbles(sp) and the top off oil replenish's the spent additives in the oil.

 

[greencrew]

S2000, good point, but, while I'm convinced as Bob stated that the typical oil filter is not doing much any how, I'm also convinced that adding the oil back in to refill the new filter is important in refreshing the additives, and TBN, which are important in an extended drain interval.

 

[Pablo]

Your strongest point seems to be the dry start issue with a new filter, which is easily overcome by filling the filter with new oil.

I'm one of the first to say that people should take a look at extended drains, and oil filters that hold up for the extended drains, so nothing new there.

The main argument against not changing your oil filter every oil change is basically why would anyone, given the ease of changing the silly filter, leave 1/2-1 qt of dirty old nasty oil in their $5-$20,000+ engine to save $3-6????

I won't flame anyone with a rational veiwpoint, and I agree that it's not like your engine will grenade if you don't change the filter. OTOH, I can rationally say that using a good oil, using an extended OCI, and changing the filter (preprimed) and toping up with fresh oil mid interval works too.

 

[S2000driver]

On my cars, the oil filter mounts sideways. Therefore, you really can't pre-fill the oil filter more than about 1/3. Also, removing the oil filter allows all the oil out in the channels leading to the engine to drain. Even with prefilling the oil filter, the oil light stays on much too long.

On two of my cars, the oil filter is very difficult to get to. The difference between changing the filter and not changing it is not just a matter of money. I'm saving driving my car up on ramps, crawling under the car and fumbling for the filter because I can't see it. My arm gets filthy and last time I cut a finger.

With all the used oil analysis information available, do you really believe that the oil I leave in the filter is "nasty"?

I'm really only talking about one of my vehicles, the CR-V in which I change the oil every 3 months but change the filter once a year. My other two vehicles are still getting a new filter every yearly synthetic oil change.

 

[Spector]

I am awaiting my results from Blackstone on latest run of 11200 miles with no filter change as compared to two previous runs, one with a filter change at 6000 miles and one with no fitler change but changed out a quart at 6000 miles. All three samples will be in the 10-12,000 miles range. Unit has 50,000 total miles

I did cut open the filter I just removed, Amsoil SDF 29, and it looked fine, again, as expected, nothing material to the naked eye that I could see and it is a vertical filter so who cares if the ADBV works or not.

At this point (depending on results) I am going to a 12,000 mile interval, no filter change. Oh, forgot, at the 6000 mile mark on this last run I did drain about 10oz and added #132 with LC and then LC about every 1000 after that. That could have a bearing on results but if good, who cares.

 

[Ray Garlington]

S2000driver

quote:

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I'm saving driving my car up on ramps, crawling under the car and fumbling for the filter because I can't see it. My arm gets filthy and last time I cut a finger.

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Ha Ha! Yep, working on cars is dangerous business.

I've gotta agree, not changing a sideways filter makes an oil change SO much more pleasant, but don't you feel at all GUILTY????

 

[Whimsey]

Today's smaller low to the ground cars are a royal pain in the butt to do a complete oil change service on them unless you have a lift. Even with ramps I can't get to the buried oil filter on my 1996 4 cylinder Zetec motor. After it's on the ramps and the oil is drained and the oil plug is put back in I then have to roll the car off the ramps. And then jack the passenger side up and remove the wheel to get at the oil filter. I can take it to the Ford dealer and they will change the oil while I wait for $17, if I supply the oil. They supply the labor and Motorcraft oil filter. Or $22 if they put in their Motorcraft oil. The best part is I get watch the oil change. Heck they even work with me to make sure when I'm getting UOA samples they are collected correctly. Of course a $5 tip in that case doesn't hurt

.

Whimsey

 

[Spector]

With ramps I can get to my zetec on the 96 Mystique. A pain, horizontal filter in the rear over the driveshaft etc., really messy but it can be done. I wait unitl the next morning, having let the pan drain all night and then attack the filter. Not much room but it can be done.

 

[unDummy]

Peace of mind

I can't afford 3 relatively new cars in the driveway. I'll pay the extra for oil changes over another car payment any day.

People who can afford a new car at any time don't need to worry about maintenance. Someone like me who drives 10 and 14 year old cars and expects to teach my kids to drive in those same cars in 10 years will easily add the extra oil change.

I prefill my filter during the change which almost eliminates that ONE extra dry start a year.

 

[Kernel Potter]

Isn't there also the concern that the cellulose(paper) filter elements in oil filters breaking down after being in service for a long time? Like the constant exposure to acids, water, heat and pressure. That's one of the things that makes me want to change them within 6 months to a year at the max. Reading about some stories of paper elements breaking apart and causing engine damage isn't reassuring, whether they were accurate diagnosis' or not.

Just like people who don't know what kind of condition their oil is in without doing UOAs, it would be nice to see some long term studies on what paper oil filter elements can withstand to set a general precedent.

 

[dickwells]

I wonder if some of these tough ones could have a remote filter kit installed on them to make the job easy?

 

[S2000driver]

Ray- Hehe, maybe guilt is the reason for my post!

Kernal- I agree time dependent deterioration is a significant concern. From what I have read in the owner's manual of all my cars, one year oil filter usage under normal conditions is completely acceptable. I believe I am changing the oil in my cars and driving far enough each trip that acids are never a problem...

Spector- I look forward to your results!

unDummy- I recently embarked on a new career and have been getting raises that justify replacing my old cars. But I realize cars are poor monetary investments, and I hope to have them each 20+ years. I do my own service and enjoy the savings and peace of mind the job is done right. As I pay off the last two cars I will be spending money on better investments while enjoying a long service. (I'm no stranger to cars with over 100,000 miles during my life!)

Even with a oil filter prefil, I find it takes a significantly longer period of time for the oil light to go out and the engine clatter to stop.

 

[edwardh1]

how do you prefill a filter that is mounted upside down?
holes point down??

 

[unDummy]

quote:

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Originally posted by edwardh1:
how do you prefill a filter that is mounted upside down?
holes point down??

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My Mazda is upside down and a mess at every interval. Fill it up and spin quickly. The filter is like a sponge and will hold plenty of oil. I even prefill or soak cartridge type filters.

 

[Gary]

Do you have an alarm or some sort of ignition disable, you could crank the engine for 10 seconds first to prime the filter, then start.

 

[unDummy]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gary:
Do you have an alarm or some sort of ignition disable, you could crank the engine for 10 seconds first to prime the filter, then start.

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And add unburned fuel to that new oil

Find the relay/fuse/circuit and disable the injectors. Otherwise, don't bother!

 

[Al]

To me changing oil without a new filter is like cleaning up a baby and putting the old diaper back on. Starting a vehicle with even a dirty filter and causing damage is an urban legend IMHO . I had an 87 Ranger that had a horizontal filter (without an anti-drainback valve) It hammered 15 seconds every time it started up. 140K later its still running.

I have have had many very difficult to change applications. After one or two changes you get to figure out the best way with the right tool and any of them are easily changeable.

Also after x amount of miles your filter goes on recirc so you are getting poor filtering.

$5 filter vs 25K car

But, hey its your car.

 

[Ray H]

Isn't the notion of "Dry Starts" a bit overrated? Presuming the oil change is done on a warmed engine, there WILL be an oil film on all the parts subject to oilflow. I've never had the "Oil" light take longer than 4 or 5 seconds to extinguish upon restarting after changing oil, and the film will cover that contingency without the danger of gauling the bearings or trashing the valve train*. I can see the value of pre-filling a filter on a newly rebuilt engine's 1st start, racing engines, or medium to heavy duty engines with mammoth oil filters, but for routine maintenance of cars and light trucks, it's an exercise in obsessive-compulsive behavior. Fortunately on my Hyundai V-6, the horizontally mounted oil filter is the first thing that greets me just behind the front bumper when I crawl under and direct my gaze upward. It gets changed at every 3,000 mile oil change. Necessary? Probably not. Obsessive-compulsive? Yep.

*Anyone ever seen the massive twin diesels in WW II German U-boats? No valve cover, no upper engine lube system. The engineer hand oiled the overhead valve mechanicals from an oil can - when he thought of it and had the time what with his other duties.