Here in north eastern Vermont we already had -15. Not uncommon to see -30 with wind chill at -50. We just stay home. If necessary to go out My 02 jeep 4.0 has 5W-30 Maxlife HM motorcraft filter and it will start but slow. takes about 7 sec to build oil pressure to 60 psi. Our summer vehicle 2010 mountaineer 4.0 has QSUD 5W-30 fram ultra garage kept No issue starting. No statrt up noise with either rig. Neither vehicle is moved until engine temp is up and have heat. Though about 0W-30 or 0W-20 for the jeep but at these temp I cannot see that there would be much difference in starting.
What oil flows best in -5 degree weather.
- Thread starter Bill7
- Start date
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Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: Shannow
statement was that synthetic is wax free...that's false.
Syn is way lower on waxes.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
statement was the synthetic "flowed" better at -5C...that's false.
It was -5F, not C, which is -20C. I thought that would be cold enough to see some differences between GroupII conventional and GroupIII syn. Years ago I left a small assortment of dino and syn oils outside to 0F overnight, and I seem to remember the syn was less (low-shear) viscous anyway. "Mo' liquidy" is the tech term for it.
Bottom line, we have been programmed to believe that faster cranking and less viscous oil from a 0w20 is better for engines than anything else. It has always sounded reasonable to me, especially at -20C (-5F).
Until somebody has proof that thicker cold oil is better for an engine, I'll cling to my belief that less viscous oil gets to parts quicker on cold starts.
"The easier and quicker oil flow also promotes faster lubrication of internal engine parts when the engine does start. " --- Lycoming Engines engineering recommendations, https://www.lycoming.com/content/operating-cold-weather
Apologies, that was a typo through force of habit...
Your request to post that thicker oil is "better" for an engine is a strawman...so I won't bother....however, as most of the wear is during the warmup phase, as the oil is thinning and the additives are getting their act together, maybe thicker holds a slight advantage in wear in that regime...Not economy, which is the reason de extreme for a few of the grades (by the OEM's own admissions).
Per the "flows faster", I'll just copy some stuff I posted in another thread...same premise as this, same usual suspects with the same statements...
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4601794/1
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I doubt the two are going to be very different at 0F, although I think Shannow has showed some great curves in the past that gave some real numbers for the two across a wide temp range (and were probably killed by the Photobucket change since then).
I've found a new set, and will try to get some off photobucket when I've got time...
This one was good, in that it showed how a bunch of different oils thickened with the cold, affecting delivery times.
Plus had a regression equation for that particular engine in the test cell.
Points of note is that the regression equations are on the crazy end, the cold pumping end, so their absolute use in the freezing and above range aren't there.
Note also, it's in whole poise, not Centipoise.
So take M1 0W40 and M1 5W30 at 0C (I'll just use Cst=Cp, it's close enough).
5.62P versus 6.33P - Delta = 0.71
Delta ROAT - 0.072*0.71 = 0.05sec
Delta 3bar - 0.062*0.71 = 0.04sec
Like I said, the formulae are around the actual measurable part of the curve...in the flat part, there's no difference with a PD pump.
For the cold end, note that J300 MRV (flow to the pickup is about 600P depending on grade), and that MRV halves with every 5C temperature increase roughly.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: pbm
Shannow's graphs are a little over my head....Is it safe for me to assume that a 5w20 is not significantly different than a 0w20 at 0*F?....Let's use Mobil 1 as an example...How about Mobil 1 0w20 vs MS5K 5w20 (Mobil's dino) vs. M1 0w20 at 0*F?
Thanks...and sorry for my ignorance.
https://www.mobil.com/english-us/passenger-vehicle-lube/pds/glxxmobil-1-0w20
http://mobil.moovelub.com/sites/default/files/mobil_supertm_synthetic.pdf
MRV's, translated to "Poise", so you can follow them on the charts.
Code:
Temp M1 0W20 super 0W20 SUPER 5w20
-40C 92 268
-35C 45 (est) 130 (EST) 132 (EST)
-30C 22 (est) 65 (EST) 65 (est)
-25C 11 (est) 30 (est) 30 (EST)
-20c 5 (EST) 15 (EST) 15 (EST)
-15c 3 (est) 8 (est) 8 (est)
0F is -18C...not much difference between them.
at -40 (C or F), quite a bit.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Pelican
I can see how some oil may too thick when hot as in ...W30 vs ...W40 or 50; passages, clearances & tolerances may be too small to allow a thick oil through, but on cold starts the thinner the better IMO. Perhaps someone will explain. Thx
With a positive displacement pump doing the oil, it shifts the same volume of oil every revolution...
with oil in it's pumpable range, it takes the same time to fill the galleries, regardless of "W" rating, largely independent of viscosity.
Look at all the curves I posted above, that's the reason that they flatten out.
The above, for a given engine shows full oil pressure at 6 secs for SAE30 at 30F, 6 seconds for 10W30 at 9F, 6 secs for 5W20 at 12 F.
Put all of these oils at 60F, and they'll all take 6 seconds, because that's the time that it takes the pump to fill the engine.
Drop below the readilyy pumpable range, 10F for the 30, -9F for the 10W30, then the pumpability is starting to creep in.
If you are freezing and above, SAE30, or any of the W ratings will get there the same.
0F, vastly different issue, and you need to consider what you need to start.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
statement was that synthetic is wax free...that's false.
Syn is way lower on waxes.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
statement was the synthetic "flowed" better at -5C...that's false.
It was -5F, not C, which is -20C. I thought that would be cold enough to see some differences between GroupII conventional and GroupIII syn. Years ago I left a small assortment of dino and syn oils outside to 0F overnight, and I seem to remember the syn was less (low-shear) viscous anyway. "Mo' liquidy" is the tech term for it.
Bottom line, we have been programmed to believe that faster cranking and less viscous oil from a 0w20 is better for engines than anything else. It has always sounded reasonable to me, especially at -20C (-5F).
Until somebody has proof that thicker cold oil is better for an engine, I'll cling to my belief that less viscous oil gets to parts quicker on cold starts.
"The easier and quicker oil flow also promotes faster lubrication of internal engine parts when the engine does start. " --- Lycoming Engines engineering recommendations, https://www.lycoming.com/content/operating-cold-weather
Apologies, that was a typo through force of habit...
Your request to post that thicker oil is "better" for an engine is a strawman...so I won't bother....however, as most of the wear is during the warmup phase, as the oil is thinning and the additives are getting their act together, maybe thicker holds a slight advantage in wear in that regime...Not economy, which is the reason de extreme for a few of the grades (by the OEM's own admissions).
Per the "flows faster", I'll just copy some stuff I posted in another thread...same premise as this, same usual suspects with the same statements...
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4601794/1
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I doubt the two are going to be very different at 0F, although I think Shannow has showed some great curves in the past that gave some real numbers for the two across a wide temp range (and were probably killed by the Photobucket change since then).
I've found a new set, and will try to get some off photobucket when I've got time...
This one was good, in that it showed how a bunch of different oils thickened with the cold, affecting delivery times.
Plus had a regression equation for that particular engine in the test cell.
Points of note is that the regression equations are on the crazy end, the cold pumping end, so their absolute use in the freezing and above range aren't there.
Note also, it's in whole poise, not Centipoise.
So take M1 0W40 and M1 5W30 at 0C (I'll just use Cst=Cp, it's close enough).
5.62P versus 6.33P - Delta = 0.71
Delta ROAT - 0.072*0.71 = 0.05sec
Delta 3bar - 0.062*0.71 = 0.04sec
Like I said, the formulae are around the actual measurable part of the curve...in the flat part, there's no difference with a PD pump.
For the cold end, note that J300 MRV (flow to the pickup is about 600P depending on grade), and that MRV halves with every 5C temperature increase roughly.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: pbm
Shannow's graphs are a little over my head....Is it safe for me to assume that a 5w20 is not significantly different than a 0w20 at 0*F?....Let's use Mobil 1 as an example...How about Mobil 1 0w20 vs MS5K 5w20 (Mobil's dino) vs. M1 0w20 at 0*F?
Thanks...and sorry for my ignorance.
https://www.mobil.com/english-us/passenger-vehicle-lube/pds/glxxmobil-1-0w20
http://mobil.moovelub.com/sites/default/files/mobil_supertm_synthetic.pdf
MRV's, translated to "Poise", so you can follow them on the charts.
Code:
Temp M1 0W20 super 0W20 SUPER 5w20
-40C 92 268
-35C 45 (est) 130 (EST) 132 (EST)
-30C 22 (est) 65 (EST) 65 (est)
-25C 11 (est) 30 (est) 30 (EST)
-20c 5 (EST) 15 (EST) 15 (EST)
-15c 3 (est) 8 (est) 8 (est)
0F is -18C...not much difference between them.
at -40 (C or F), quite a bit.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Pelican
I can see how some oil may too thick when hot as in ...W30 vs ...W40 or 50; passages, clearances & tolerances may be too small to allow a thick oil through, but on cold starts the thinner the better IMO. Perhaps someone will explain. Thx
With a positive displacement pump doing the oil, it shifts the same volume of oil every revolution...
with oil in it's pumpable range, it takes the same time to fill the galleries, regardless of "W" rating, largely independent of viscosity.
Look at all the curves I posted above, that's the reason that they flatten out.
The above, for a given engine shows full oil pressure at 6 secs for SAE30 at 30F, 6 seconds for 10W30 at 9F, 6 secs for 5W20 at 12 F.
Put all of these oils at 60F, and they'll all take 6 seconds, because that's the time that it takes the pump to fill the engine.
Drop below the readilyy pumpable range, 10F for the 30, -9F for the 10W30, then the pumpability is starting to creep in.
If you are freezing and above, SAE30, or any of the W ratings will get there the same.
0F, vastly different issue, and you need to consider what you need to start.
Originally Posted By: Bill7
Hi,
I have a 2007 Honda Accord 4 cylinder with 39,000 miles. I've moved to a location where it often hits -5 degrees Farenheit in the winter.
Will conventional 5W-20 oil flow ok and not cause engine wear at cold weather startups at -5 degrees Farenheit?
Is Synthetic oil even needed at all? If so, is Penzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-20 the best choice?
Thanks in advance for your reply.
Bill
Run M1 afe 0W-30 and it will work from -35*f to over 100*f. The AFE is a great oil.
Hi,
I have a 2007 Honda Accord 4 cylinder with 39,000 miles. I've moved to a location where it often hits -5 degrees Farenheit in the winter.
Will conventional 5W-20 oil flow ok and not cause engine wear at cold weather startups at -5 degrees Farenheit?
Is Synthetic oil even needed at all? If so, is Penzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-20 the best choice?
Thanks in advance for your reply.
Bill
Run M1 afe 0W-30 and it will work from -35*f to over 100*f. The AFE is a great oil.
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I was under the impression that paraffin wax is not like regular wax. Softer and much smaller molecules
If I'd ever had reason to guess what, if anything, "regular wax" meant (I never have, since that's an American usage of "regular") I'd have guessed it meant paraffin wax, if anything.
What does it mean?
Bee?
Ear?
Originally Posted By: bbhero
How about candle wax???? That's the most likely answer here.
You're probably right, which is a pity, since that doesn't make sense
Standard, common household (AKA "regular" in US) candles ARE paraffin wax, so contrasting them with paraffin wax is nonsense.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I was under the impression that paraffin wax is not like regular wax. Softer and much smaller molecules
If I'd ever had reason to guess what, if anything, "regular wax" meant (I never have, since that's an American usage of "regular") I'd have guessed it meant paraffin wax, if anything.
What does it mean?
Bee?
Ear?
Originally Posted By: bbhero
How about candle wax???? That's the most likely answer here.
You're probably right, which is a pity, since that doesn't make sense
Standard, common household (AKA "regular" in US) candles ARE paraffin wax, so contrasting them with paraffin wax is nonsense.
Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: Bill7
Hi,
I have a 2007 Honda Accord 4 cylinder with 39,000 miles. I've moved to a location where it often hits -5 degrees Farenheit in the winter.
Will conventional 5W-20 oil flow ok and not cause engine wear at cold weather startups at -5 degrees Farenheit?
Is Synthetic oil even needed at all? If so, is Penzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-20 the best choice?
Thanks in advance for your reply.
Bill
Run M1 afe 0W-30 and it will work from -35*f to over 100*f. The AFE is a great oil.
+1. I have even use M1 0-20AFE in temps up to 109F with no issues.
Originally Posted By: Bill7
Hi,
I have a 2007 Honda Accord 4 cylinder with 39,000 miles. I've moved to a location where it often hits -5 degrees Farenheit in the winter.
Will conventional 5W-20 oil flow ok and not cause engine wear at cold weather startups at -5 degrees Farenheit?
Is Synthetic oil even needed at all? If so, is Penzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-20 the best choice?
Thanks in advance for your reply.
Bill
Run M1 afe 0W-30 and it will work from -35*f to over 100*f. The AFE is a great oil.
+1. I have even use M1 0-20AFE in temps up to 109F with no issues.
If I lived where it got down to minus numbers (F*), it'd be 0W for everything. Clean, clean battery cables and big wire. I see modern cars with almost #6 wire on their starting circuits and I wonder ...
Last edited:
Shannow has some good charts for sure (see above, about 4 posts up).
I think its safe to say, that for -5F (-20C), there is some benefit in running a full-syn 0w20 over a conventional 5w20 (no dino conventional comes in 0w20, so thats the closest comparison in an hths=2.6 oil). How much? Hard to quantify it in words, since it depends on the engine type & model and other unknown wear measures we can't see.
I do like the recommendation (above) to run M1 AFE 0w30. I'd like to go up a grade in that older 2007 Accord. The "30" part means its only 10% thicker hot, so no problem there, and thicker oil films when hydrodynamic anyway.
M1 AFE 0w30 is really the universal oil for gasoline (petrol) engines. It meets the miniumum HTHS requirements for all xw20 applications and xw30 engines too, where SN or GF-5 or dexos1 is required, as well as the HTHS part of VW 508/509, BMW LL-01FE & LL-14FE for those German cars to boot.
(Its not dexos1 Gen2 yet, but there shouldn't be a problem with LSPI with it's low Ca.)
I think its safe to say, that for -5F (-20C), there is some benefit in running a full-syn 0w20 over a conventional 5w20 (no dino conventional comes in 0w20, so thats the closest comparison in an hths=2.6 oil). How much? Hard to quantify it in words, since it depends on the engine type & model and other unknown wear measures we can't see.
I do like the recommendation (above) to run M1 AFE 0w30. I'd like to go up a grade in that older 2007 Accord. The "30" part means its only 10% thicker hot, so no problem there, and thicker oil films when hydrodynamic anyway.
M1 AFE 0w30 is really the universal oil for gasoline (petrol) engines. It meets the miniumum HTHS requirements for all xw20 applications and xw30 engines too, where SN or GF-5 or dexos1 is required, as well as the HTHS part of VW 508/509, BMW LL-01FE & LL-14FE for those German cars to boot.
(Its not dexos1 Gen2 yet, but there shouldn't be a problem with LSPI with it's low Ca.)
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
(...Its not dexos1 Gen2 yet, but there shouldn't be a problem with LSPI with it's low Ca.)
It may not have the new logo on the bottles just yet but 0w30 is a d1G2 licensed product. I'd look for the license#...
http://www.centerforqa.com/dexos-brand2015/
(...Its not dexos1 Gen2 yet, but there shouldn't be a problem with LSPI with it's low Ca.)
It may not have the new logo on the bottles just yet but 0w30 is a d1G2 licensed product. I'd look for the license#...
http://www.centerforqa.com/dexos-brand2015/
Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: Bill7
Hi,
I have a 2007 Honda Accord 4 cylinder with 39,000 miles. I've moved to a location where it often hits -5 degrees Farenheit in the winter.
Will conventional 5W-20 oil flow ok and not cause engine wear at cold weather startups at -5 degrees Farenheit?
Is Synthetic oil even needed at all? If so, is Penzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-20 the best choice?
Thanks in advance for your reply.
Bill
Run M1 afe 0W-30 and it will work from -35*f to over 100*f. The AFE is a great oil.
What I wrote above, earlier in this thread.
It was within the OP's low temperature range this morning, at about -2F.
FWIW both the newer Accord and the newer Subie started with no drama and no unpleasant noises on M1 AFE 0W-20.
I drove the Accord myself and started it only when I was leaving for work and went out in flip flops and a bathrobe to start the Forester for my wife about ten minutes before she would leave just to warm it up a bit for her, although the Subie does have seat heaters.
I have no doubt that a 5W would have brought similar results, although a cheapie that barely meets the 5W qualification would have brought slower cranking and maybe some momentary unpleasant noise.
Originally Posted By: Bill7
Hi,
I have a 2007 Honda Accord 4 cylinder with 39,000 miles. I've moved to a location where it often hits -5 degrees Farenheit in the winter.
Will conventional 5W-20 oil flow ok and not cause engine wear at cold weather startups at -5 degrees Farenheit?
Is Synthetic oil even needed at all? If so, is Penzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-20 the best choice?
Thanks in advance for your reply.
Bill
Run M1 afe 0W-30 and it will work from -35*f to over 100*f. The AFE is a great oil.
What I wrote above, earlier in this thread.
It was within the OP's low temperature range this morning, at about -2F.
FWIW both the newer Accord and the newer Subie started with no drama and no unpleasant noises on M1 AFE 0W-20.
I drove the Accord myself and started it only when I was leaving for work and went out in flip flops and a bathrobe to start the Forester for my wife about ten minutes before she would leave just to warm it up a bit for her, although the Subie does have seat heaters.
I have no doubt that a 5W would have brought similar results, although a cheapie that barely meets the 5W qualification would have brought slower cranking and maybe some momentary unpleasant noise.
-18F air temp when I left for work this morning. Car started normal just like any other day. Lived in MN my entire life and never had a car not start. Always use 5W-30 Mobil 1 or PZ syn. I replace my car batteries every 4th year if they need it or not.
Dave
Dave
Originally Posted By: bbhero
You are the world champion who brought up bee wax or ear wax.... Thus my answer was in relation to everyday wax material. And it would be obvious to most casual observers that is exactly what PimTac meant.
Bringing up ear wax blew the credibility factor in that exchange. Of course I was thinking candle wax which I thought was a hard wax compared to wax found in petroleum. The mixup here may be that the candles that Duck May know of are the same type I saw in SE Asia which are softer than beeswax and have some petroleum product in them. When lit they produced a lot of black smoke. In a enclosed place the smoke stains the ceiling and walls. Duck can confirm if they have these same candles in Taiwan
As for wax in oil, the percentage has to be very tiny or zero. I thought most oils especially synthetics were dewaxed? So seeing clumps of wax in oil makes me think that is conventional oil or the white stuff is additive precipitation. One if the experts here could clear this up.
Thanks for the support bbhero. I appreciate that.
Edit; sorry it’s Ducked not Duck.
You are the world champion who brought up bee wax or ear wax.... Thus my answer was in relation to everyday wax material. And it would be obvious to most casual observers that is exactly what PimTac meant.
Bringing up ear wax blew the credibility factor in that exchange. Of course I was thinking candle wax which I thought was a hard wax compared to wax found in petroleum. The mixup here may be that the candles that Duck May know of are the same type I saw in SE Asia which are softer than beeswax and have some petroleum product in them. When lit they produced a lot of black smoke. In a enclosed place the smoke stains the ceiling and walls. Duck can confirm if they have these same candles in Taiwan
As for wax in oil, the percentage has to be very tiny or zero. I thought most oils especially synthetics were dewaxed? So seeing clumps of wax in oil makes me think that is conventional oil or the white stuff is additive precipitation. One if the experts here could clear this up.
Thanks for the support bbhero. I appreciate that.
Edit; sorry it’s Ducked not Duck.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Thanks for that Shannow.
No probs...here's a good paper that I was looking for yesterday...
Savant Group...Selby SAE paper gelation
Goes into some detail about gelation, and why it occurs.
Spate of pump ability failures in the 80s
* they found that a specific rate of cooling/heat soak could induce gelation at quite mild temperatures.
* was the death knell of pour point as an indicator of pumpability, as the gelation didn't happen during that cooling process...in fact it was specific to the oil/additive combo and couldn't be predicted.
(It's also why when you store your oil below freeing, it can be "damaged"...i.e. lose it's cold flow properties until reheated and worked).
Little more discussion in a Google book.
Thanks for that Shannow.
No probs...here's a good paper that I was looking for yesterday...
Savant Group...Selby SAE paper gelation
Goes into some detail about gelation, and why it occurs.
Spate of pump ability failures in the 80s
* they found that a specific rate of cooling/heat soak could induce gelation at quite mild temperatures.
* was the death knell of pour point as an indicator of pumpability, as the gelation didn't happen during that cooling process...in fact it was specific to the oil/additive combo and couldn't be predicted.
(It's also why when you store your oil below freeing, it can be "damaged"...i.e. lose it's cold flow properties until reheated and worked).
Little more discussion in a Google book.
Amsoil Signature 0w40 in my ecotec powered Cavalier.
Turned over easily this morning at -32F!
That 0w is some good stuff!
Turned over easily this morning at -32F!
That 0w is some good stuff!
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Thanks for that Shannow.
No probs...here's a good paper that I was looking for yesterday...
Savant Group...Selby SAE paper gelation
Goes into some detail about gelation, and why it occurs.
Spate of pump ability failures in the 80s
* they found that a specific rate of cooling/heat soak could induce gelation at quite mild temperatures.
* was the death knell of pour point as an indicator of pumpability, as the gelation didn't happen during that cooling process...in fact it was specific to the oil/additive combo and couldn't be predicted.
(It's also why when you store your oil below freeing, it can be "damaged"...i.e. lose it's cold flow properties until reheated and worked).
Little more discussion in a Google book.
This sounds worrisome.
If this is the case, than why is it that oil can sit in the sumps of my cars with well below zero temperatures and gelation doesn't seem to happen?
Yesterday morning we saw a bit below 0F and both cars started easily on M1 AFE 0W-20 with no noises at all, certainly nothing that would indicate oil starvation.
Was this a problem that ended with the oil formulations of thirty years ago, or is it that the fills in both of these cars had already seen a couple of thousand miles of heat cycling?
I'm really curious about this, since it's a problem that I never saw even back in the early eighties.
For the record, the coldest morning on which I've ever started a car that had sat outdoors was back in the early eighties, at -27F. The car was an old Civic 1500 with manual choke and the oil was a store brand 10W-40. No issues and no bad noises.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Thanks for that Shannow.
No probs...here's a good paper that I was looking for yesterday...
Savant Group...Selby SAE paper gelation
Goes into some detail about gelation, and why it occurs.
Spate of pump ability failures in the 80s
* they found that a specific rate of cooling/heat soak could induce gelation at quite mild temperatures.
* was the death knell of pour point as an indicator of pumpability, as the gelation didn't happen during that cooling process...in fact it was specific to the oil/additive combo and couldn't be predicted.
(It's also why when you store your oil below freeing, it can be "damaged"...i.e. lose it's cold flow properties until reheated and worked).
Little more discussion in a Google book.
This sounds worrisome.
If this is the case, than why is it that oil can sit in the sumps of my cars with well below zero temperatures and gelation doesn't seem to happen?
Yesterday morning we saw a bit below 0F and both cars started easily on M1 AFE 0W-20 with no noises at all, certainly nothing that would indicate oil starvation.
Was this a problem that ended with the oil formulations of thirty years ago, or is it that the fills in both of these cars had already seen a couple of thousand miles of heat cycling?
I'm really curious about this, since it's a problem that I never saw even back in the early eighties.
For the record, the coldest morning on which I've ever started a car that had sat outdoors was back in the early eighties, at -27F. The car was an old Civic 1500 with manual choke and the oil was a store brand 10W-40. No issues and no bad noises.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Thanks for that Shannow.
No probs...here's a good paper that I was looking for yesterday...
Savant Group...Selby SAE paper gelation
Goes into some detail about gelation, and why it occurs.
Spate of pump ability failures in the 80s
* they found that a specific rate of cooling/heat soak could induce gelation at quite mild temperatures.
* was the death knell of pour point as an indicator of pumpability, as the gelation didn't happen during that cooling process...in fact it was specific to the oil/additive combo and couldn't be predicted.
(It's also why when you store your oil below freeing, it can be "damaged"...i.e. lose it's cold flow properties until reheated and worked).
Little more discussion in a Google book.
This sounds worrisome.
If this is the case, than why is it that oil can sit in the sumps of my cars with well below zero temperatures and gelation doesn't seem to happen?
Yesterday morning we saw a bit below 0F and both cars started easily on M1 AFE 0W-20 with no noises at all, certainly nothing that would indicate oil starvation.
Was this a problem that ended with the oil formulations of thirty years ago, or is it that the fills in both of these cars had already seen a couple of thousand miles of heat cycling?
I'm really curious about this, since it's a problem that I never saw even back in the early eighties.
For the record, the coldest morning on which I've ever started a car that had sat outdoors was back in the early eighties, at -27F. The car was an old Civic 1500 with manual choke and the oil was a store brand 10W-40. No issues and no bad noises.
Was a spate of cold pump ability engine failures that upset the industry and it's prior knowledge.
Pour point cooled them too quick to build the gel.
1980 Sioux falls was a particular climatic event that had a 4-6 hour soak at a relatively minor temperature, followed by quick drop of 10F or thereabouts...the gel formed in the "soak", and was firmed up in the following cool...
http://machinerylubricationindia.com/mag...ine-oil-quality
Would have to be unlucky to get the "perfect storm", but people did.
And the API changed the "W" grades to use the MRV, not pour point.
(Similarly, the Toyota case of factory fill being incompatible with the first service fill for a bunch of fleet vehicles caused gelling above freezing....)
Given that some additives are waxy, not just basestocks, and have to have PPDs to address them, that's why I believe that people in cold climates need to be cautious when mixing...chances are that you won't be the next Sioux falls...
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Thanks for that Shannow.
No probs...here's a good paper that I was looking for yesterday...
Savant Group...Selby SAE paper gelation
Goes into some detail about gelation, and why it occurs.
Spate of pump ability failures in the 80s
* they found that a specific rate of cooling/heat soak could induce gelation at quite mild temperatures.
* was the death knell of pour point as an indicator of pumpability, as the gelation didn't happen during that cooling process...in fact it was specific to the oil/additive combo and couldn't be predicted.
(It's also why when you store your oil below freeing, it can be "damaged"...i.e. lose it's cold flow properties until reheated and worked).
Little more discussion in a Google book.
This sounds worrisome.
If this is the case, than why is it that oil can sit in the sumps of my cars with well below zero temperatures and gelation doesn't seem to happen?
Yesterday morning we saw a bit below 0F and both cars started easily on M1 AFE 0W-20 with no noises at all, certainly nothing that would indicate oil starvation.
Was this a problem that ended with the oil formulations of thirty years ago, or is it that the fills in both of these cars had already seen a couple of thousand miles of heat cycling?
I'm really curious about this, since it's a problem that I never saw even back in the early eighties.
For the record, the coldest morning on which I've ever started a car that had sat outdoors was back in the early eighties, at -27F. The car was an old Civic 1500 with manual choke and the oil was a store brand 10W-40. No issues and no bad noises.
Was a spate of cold pump ability engine failures that upset the industry and it's prior knowledge.
Pour point cooled them too quick to build the gel.
1980 Sioux falls was a particular climatic event that had a 4-6 hour soak at a relatively minor temperature, followed by quick drop of 10F or thereabouts...the gel formed in the "soak", and was firmed up in the following cool...
http://machinerylubricationindia.com/mag...ine-oil-quality
Would have to be unlucky to get the "perfect storm", but people did.
And the API changed the "W" grades to use the MRV, not pour point.
(Similarly, the Toyota case of factory fill being incompatible with the first service fill for a bunch of fleet vehicles caused gelling above freezing....)
Given that some additives are waxy, not just basestocks, and have to have PPDs to address them, that's why I believe that people in cold climates need to be cautious when mixing...chances are that you won't be the next Sioux falls...
Good deal Cronk. Hard to beat the 0w40 Amsoil, Castrol 0w40 and Mobil 1 0w40. And -32°F could well end up not being the lowest low temp seen up your way.... Supposed to be high temps in the mid 20s here in southeast Va on New year's day. Low temps here in the single digits that might. So, up your way it will be a bunch colder than here. I would not rule out -40°F then up that way...
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