What are the true synthetic oils?

[jmdennis]

I for one see that many synthetic oils use a group III base oil at least in the US. I personally like the Europe way of doing things in that they will not let a oil company label some thing as being synthetic unless it is truly synthetic. To me if it include a group III oil then it is a semi synthetic product. I see that for Mobil 1 EP that it may use group III but of course they refuse to say. I wish that Catroil was never allowed to get away with calling their oil a synthetic and then we would not be in the mess we are today.

I realize that on this board that people just want a good oil and that is fine but I hate paying a premium for some thing that is not what is claims to be. This is why I wanted to know those oils that are truly synthetic in that they can be called synthetic if the same oil was sold in Europe.

 

[Falcon_LS]

I like the way Liqui-Moly labels their products as synthetic (Group IV/V) and synthetic technology (Group III). Then again, a Group III cannot pass as a synthetic in Europe, as you already said.

Having said that, modern oils are much superior to what they used to be and you will find lubricants using Group III base stocks can actually outperform some using Group IV base stock - PP and PU to name a few. Liqui-Moly also has products using Group III base stock (e.g. Top Tec 4200 5W-30) that are claimed to be good for 50,000 km (31,250 miles), depending on the manufacturer's OC recommendation!

 

[znode]

Oh great, this again.

This just happened: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1927501#Post1927501

Repeat after me: The quality of an oil is based on basestock AND additives.

Today's Group IIIs have far surpassed the performance of group IV's of decades ago. I mean, it is the final performance that matters, right?

And no, you're not paying PAO "synthetic" premiums for your Group III's. It's called a free market, with supply and demand and competition. If you look at RP and Amsoil prices, those are the premiums you would be paying for PAO. It's also why European synthetics cost 2-10x that of synthetics here. If you want to pay for those, feel free.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Most over the counter "synthetic" oils are group III or have some group III. I don't worry much about group III or IV or V, I pay attention to how it performs and how long does it lasted.

If you want a list of synthetic oils available in USA, take a look at the recommend list of MB 229.5, they are a little heavy weight but they are long life synthetic oils.

 

[bmwtechguy]

"Synthetic" is a marketing term these days and really only IMPLIES a higher performance product. The real test is actual performance in your specific application. I would not get too worked up over which group base oil is used. There are many ways now to formulate top quality oils.

 

[Gene K]

I believe "Fully Synthetic" also applies to GIII in Europe now.

Shell Helix Ultra 5W40 which is Ferrari Factory Fill is formulated with Shell XHVI Slack Wax Base Stock which is a Group III. Every Bottle Ive seen says "Fully Synthetic".

Amsoil (Excepting XL), Redline and Royal Purple are going to be your easiest ways to avoid GIII. Unfortunately many do not meet the SM/GF4 Certification requirement for warranty in most new cars.

 

[dparm]

Motul 300V is for sure.

 

[yaris0128]

If Amsoil or Royal Purple had that API starburst Id use their oils. Not that I doubt their oils and I have used them before but because they dont carry that API certification I wont use their product over something like Penz Ultra.

 

[hardcore302]

I am happy with semi-synthetic oils, because they perform well, especially MC. Wouldn't be close to synthetic in Europe. But does it perform well? Absolutely. So who cares?

 

[yaris0128]

Originally Posted By: hardcore302
I am happy with semi-synthetic oils, because they perform well, especially MC. Wouldn't be close to synthetic in Europe. But does it perform well? Absolutely. So who cares?


Yaaaaaa buddy!

 

[jmdennis]

Originally Posted By: znode
Oh great, this again.

This just happened: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1927501#Post1927501

Repeat after me: The quality of an oil is based on basestock AND additives.

Today's Group IIIs have far surpassed the performance of group IV's of decades ago. I mean, it is the final performance that matters, right?

And no, you're not paying PAO "synthetic" premiums for your Group III's. It's called a free market, with supply and demand and competition. If you look at RP and Amsoil prices, those are the premiums you would be paying for PAO. It's also why European synthetics cost 2-10x that of synthetics here. If you want to pay for those, feel free.


I am sorry to bring up some thing that has been talked about before. I really just wanted to know which one's are truly synthetic. I know the oil's of today are much better then they used to be. I also know that labeling some thing as synthetic is a marketing ploy at least in the US. Some will tell you outright what they use and others will not. I do not mind things being marketed as semi-synthetic at least with those you know they are mostly just oil with a little bit of synthetic thrown in. I just wanted a list that I could have so I know which one's are really synthetic and which one's have some regular oil in them. I know these will cost more. I also wanted to know so when I go to Walmart or some place else I can be an informed consumer knowing what I am buying.

 

[znode]

Originally Posted By: jmdennis

I am sorry to bring up some thing that has been talked about before. I really just wanted to know which one's are truly synthetic. I know the oil's of today are much better then they used to be. I also know that labeling some thing as synthetic is a marketing ploy at least in the US. Some will tell you outright what they use and others will not. I do not mind things being marketed as semi-synthetic at least with those you know they are mostly just oil with a little bit of synthetic thrown in. I just wanted a list that I could have so I know which one's are really synthetic and which one's have some regular oil in them. I know these will cost more. I also wanted to know so when I go to Walmart or some place else I can be an informed consumer knowing what I am buying.


You are still not getting the point, because you're still operating under the false assumption that if you knew which oils were "truly synthetic", whatever that means (more PAO than III? What about Group V's? Polyolesters vs diesters? What about carrier oil componentry?), you are going to somehow get a better deal or better performing oil.

We're trying to explain to you that that is not at all the case today, because oil performance today is at least if not more dependent on additive technology than basestock composition.

And as I linked, a decent list is in the other thread. If you really want to know, Amsoil, Royal Purple, Redline, Schaeffers 9k, Motul, RLI, and GC/Syntec 0W30 are most likely going to meet your definition of "true synthetic". Again, additive and basestock technologies have progressed to the point where even ignoring the entire Group III issue, defining "synthetic" is still going to be hard. Do you get to use carrier Group I/II oils? The additives may not be "synthetic" either if they're crude-derived. Do refined vegetable stock or animal fat count as nonsynthetic? It certainly isn't dino.

In short, the entire definition of "synthetic" came from the age when "synthetic" was better. Now that it doesn't matter, the term "synthetic" is just as useless as saying you want your electronics to have "real laser" - it is now a marketing term of decades past.

 

[1999nick]

You that are saying that the Group lll oils may be just as good, or may be even better than true synthetic Group IV's are the one's not getting the point. What I object to is claiming in advertising that oil is "synthetic", when it is not. It may be super refined and just as good, but, to me, it is a lie to say it is synthetic when it is not.

 

[bmwtechguy]

If you could see and understand how much the molecules in a good group III synthetic base oil have changed after going through a hydrocracker and other final chemical refining/purifying processes, you might agree that these processes are a type of chemical "synthesis", similar in some ways to the production of group IV/V base oils.

A high quality group III base oil is very pure and actually has some benefits over higher groups. Each synthetic base oil group has it's benefits and that is why a synthetic oil blended with several types of synthetic base oils can benefit from a blend of different base oil groups.

For example, group III does not have as good cold flow in extremely cold temps like PAO (IV) or some esters (V) have. That is one reason why you see oils like Schaeffers 9000 using both group III and IV in their base oil mix. In addition to a high quality base oil mix, Schaeffer's additive package is very good, for example. I read somewhere that their proprietary additive packages have a good many synthetic ester compounds, and this may be what sets them apart from many other oils out there. I believe that is what PU has going for it as well, but without them using Group IV base oil.

Bottom line is that the base oil is not the main factor in an oil's price or quality. The additive package is at least as important, maybe more so. And, as always, the performance of the finished product is the real test, regardless of everything else. Don't be taken in too much by all the marketing. Things have changed in the synthetic oil arena since the Mobil 1/Castrol Syntec dispute years ago.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: jmdennis
I am sorry to bring up some thing that has been talked about before. I really just wanted to know which one's are truly synthetic. I know the oil's of today are much better then they used to be.


The real problem is, and you've alluded to it yourself, is what really constitutes a fully synthetic oil? Secondly, does it really matter?

If your criteria is that it must be PAO of ester, okay, that cuts out a lot of players. Then, you have to define what content of PAO or esters. What volume of a different group would you consider acceptable for a carrier oil?

After all, if you insist on something like a pure PAO with no carrier oil, fine. You can have that, and I'll run a Group II with a normal SM additive pack, and we'll see which actually performs better over several OCIs.

For me, whether it's synthetic, dino, or a blend, I just want results. Can it stand up to heat relatively well? Can it flow reasonably well when cold? Does it meet the standards for my engine? Is it able to resist turning into sludge? If the answer to these is yes, I'd say it's pretty good.

 

[dwendt44]

Mobil-1 oils are synthetic and widely available.
They do use some G III in their oils though; more in their EP versions.
It's still mostly full synthetic base stocks.
IIRC, even Amsoil, much touted here, uses some G III for carrier oil for mixing in additives.

My 2¢

 

[StevieC]

Yeah you get under that chair...

Amsoil is mostly PAO in it's formulation but has to incorporate a small portion of GRP-III in order to carry the add-pack as I understand it.

Then in Amsoil's XL Series it's all GRP-III

Then you have Redline which is almost all GRP V

M1 because they are so secretive we will never know, but most speculate PAO & GRP-III almost 50/50 or more GRP-III then PAO.

Doesn't matter, it's the real world performance that counts and IMO, M1 is the most touted and most recommended by manufacturers and also has a lack of evidence to prove it isn't a great product that is world-class and stands the test of time.

Look at the guy that drove 1 million miles in his Saab on M1. The engine still runs perfectly and is now in the Detroit Auto Museum

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: StevieC


Look at the guy that drove 1 million miles in his Saab on M1. The engine still runs perfectly and is now in the Detroit Auto Museum


Never mind the engine was opened up 3 times!

I'm sure they did nothing but the head gasket each time...

 

[StevieC]

I didn't see that information... Where did that come from the last thing I read on that guy was that it had made it 1 million miles.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
I didn't see that information... Where did that come from the last thing I read on that guy was that it had made it 1 million miles.

I don't make this stuff up!

The rest of the story.

Bottom of article. Of course the MARKETING people (like on Mobils web site) don't say a single thing about that.

Take care, Bill