Toyota 6-speed ATF, or beating the horse to death?
- Thread starter nthach
- Start date
Originally Posted By: FlyPenFly
In the Saab workshop software for dealerships... they specifically warn against using anything but AW-1 (ATF-WS) mineral oil in the Asian Warner ATF-40 Six Speed. Longevity issues may arise.
And there's the confusing part - I'm sure Afton/Lubrizol/Infineum has done testing on taxi/rental car fleets - seeing how rental car companies are now buying Toyotas, and the Prius/Camry Hybrid as well as the Fusion and Escape Hybrid have largely replaced the Crown Vic in cities like SF and NYC. Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Subaru all largely agree to JASO M315-1A - and those add packs can be blended into Group II fluids, Group III for LV compliance.
The safe way out would be ATF-WS, seeing as my parents probably don't stress the car out too much - but MaxLife or PP LV ATF are appealing due to the "synthetic" component.
In the Saab workshop software for dealerships... they specifically warn against using anything but AW-1 (ATF-WS) mineral oil in the Asian Warner ATF-40 Six Speed. Longevity issues may arise.
And there's the confusing part - I'm sure Afton/Lubrizol/Infineum has done testing on taxi/rental car fleets - seeing how rental car companies are now buying Toyotas, and the Prius/Camry Hybrid as well as the Fusion and Escape Hybrid have largely replaced the Crown Vic in cities like SF and NYC. Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Subaru all largely agree to JASO M315-1A - and those add packs can be blended into Group II fluids, Group III for LV compliance.
The safe way out would be ATF-WS, seeing as my parents probably don't stress the car out too much - but MaxLife or PP LV ATF are appealing due to the "synthetic" component.
Originally Posted By: nthach
I'm plain confused - I think either fluid will work, at the risk of beating the horse to death has anyone reported long-term issues with the use of MaxLife or any "universal" ATF?
Stay away from universal ATFs. If I were you I would stick with WS ONLY, I changed my transmission back to WS after monkying with RL D6.
The shift quality and peace of mind is most important when it comes to fluids.
If it isn't sealed then is is a charm to replace via return line, even if it is sealed replacing exactly the same amount coming off the return line should suffice.
I'm plain confused - I think either fluid will work, at the risk of beating the horse to death has anyone reported long-term issues with the use of MaxLife or any "universal" ATF?
Stay away from universal ATFs. If I were you I would stick with WS ONLY, I changed my transmission back to WS after monkying with RL D6.
The shift quality and peace of mind is most important when it comes to fluids.
If it isn't sealed then is is a charm to replace via return line, even if it is sealed replacing exactly the same amount coming off the return line should suffice.
I put in Maxlife into my Tundra's 6 speed around the 80k mark. Should be about the same transmission, a 760 of one flavor or another. I don't push the truck (don't use it other than as a car); but it was bought used (prior lease). The WS had started to change color a bit, so I thought it was time. Maxlife didn't make it shift different. I might let it go another 100k before I change again, but it's a got a big trans cooler and see lots of highway driving.
Apparently the most critical aspect is maintaining the original viscosity of the fluid. The software and hardware are expecting something specific because tranny oil doesn't dilute or get polluted like engine oil so it doesn't have adaptive software.
Anyway, when the exact expected pressure and viscosity isn't met, it causes long term wear. Or at least that's what I've been told. Using a "universal" fluid gets you within a certain range but not exact. Maybe newer formulations might have better metal protective properties but that might be worthless if the hardware is grinding itself down because it's not getting what it's expecting.
Anyway, when the exact expected pressure and viscosity isn't met, it causes long term wear. Or at least that's what I've been told. Using a "universal" fluid gets you within a certain range but not exact. Maybe newer formulations might have better metal protective properties but that might be worthless if the hardware is grinding itself down because it's not getting what it's expecting.
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Originally Posted By: FlyPenFly
Apparently the most critical aspect is maintaining the original viscosity of the fluid. The software and hardware are expecting something specific because tranny oil doesn't dilute or get polluted like engine oil so it doesn't have adaptive software.
Anyway, when the exact expected pressure and viscosity isn't met, it causes long term wear. Or at least that's what I've been told. Using a "universal" fluid gets you within a certain range but not exact. Maybe newer formulations might have better metal protective properties but that might be worthless if the hardware is grinding itself down because it's not getting what it's expecting.
You took it right out of my mouth, the s/w h/w interaction on pressures is ONLY known to the OEM. I had RLD6 and it worked like a charm, in-fact it gave me 1MPG more than OEM fluid, I just wasn't sure its worth the risk and dumped it after 10K miles. If I were to compare OEM with RL D6, OEM functions precisely and low speed throttle response is more predictable. On open throttle there is no gear hunting, shifts are smooth better than RL
Apparently the most critical aspect is maintaining the original viscosity of the fluid. The software and hardware are expecting something specific because tranny oil doesn't dilute or get polluted like engine oil so it doesn't have adaptive software.
Anyway, when the exact expected pressure and viscosity isn't met, it causes long term wear. Or at least that's what I've been told. Using a "universal" fluid gets you within a certain range but not exact. Maybe newer formulations might have better metal protective properties but that might be worthless if the hardware is grinding itself down because it's not getting what it's expecting.
You took it right out of my mouth, the s/w h/w interaction on pressures is ONLY known to the OEM. I had RLD6 and it worked like a charm, in-fact it gave me 1MPG more than OEM fluid, I just wasn't sure its worth the risk and dumped it after 10K miles. If I were to compare OEM with RL D6, OEM functions precisely and low speed throttle response is more predictable. On open throttle there is no gear hunting, shifts are smooth better than RL
Originally Posted By: FlyPenFly
Apparently the most critical aspect is maintaining the original viscosity of the fluid. The software and hardware are expecting something specific because tranny oil doesn't dilute or get polluted like engine oil so it doesn't have adaptive software.
Anyway, when the exact expected pressure and viscosity isn't met, it causes long term wear. Or at least that's what I've been told. Using a "universal" fluid gets you within a certain range but not exact. Maybe newer formulations might have better metal protective properties but that might be worthless if the hardware is grinding itself down because it's not getting what it's expecting.
That is certainly true with some of the ATF specs and OEMs out there - Mopars being the most notorious of them, use anything but ATF+4 in them(unless it's a ZF/Aisin/Hyundai/Jatco unit) and bad things will happen - the PCM will try to pulse the solenoids to adapt but the frictional coefficient of the fluid isn't close to what the software/firmware is looking for when it sees for clutch engagement/disengagement.
A Toyota engineer said in a presentation to JASO/JAMA that OEM ATF is best for a Japanese car - but a "superior" type ATF meeting JASO M315 and that emphases friction and shudder stability.
I've done the fluid change with mostly WS fluid just a few weeks ago, I had a quart of MaxLife mixed in as well and so far, so good. At the next fluid change at the 80K mark, I'll pump in 2 quarts of MaxLife and see how things go. I'm switching their van back to T-IV, ML does seem to work alright but the lower viscosity is a little concerning.
Apparently the most critical aspect is maintaining the original viscosity of the fluid. The software and hardware are expecting something specific because tranny oil doesn't dilute or get polluted like engine oil so it doesn't have adaptive software.
Anyway, when the exact expected pressure and viscosity isn't met, it causes long term wear. Or at least that's what I've been told. Using a "universal" fluid gets you within a certain range but not exact. Maybe newer formulations might have better metal protective properties but that might be worthless if the hardware is grinding itself down because it's not getting what it's expecting.
That is certainly true with some of the ATF specs and OEMs out there - Mopars being the most notorious of them, use anything but ATF+4 in them(unless it's a ZF/Aisin/Hyundai/Jatco unit) and bad things will happen - the PCM will try to pulse the solenoids to adapt but the frictional coefficient of the fluid isn't close to what the software/firmware is looking for when it sees for clutch engagement/disengagement.
A Toyota engineer said in a presentation to JASO/JAMA that OEM ATF is best for a Japanese car - but a "superior" type ATF meeting JASO M315 and that emphases friction and shudder stability.
I've done the fluid change with mostly WS fluid just a few weeks ago, I had a quart of MaxLife mixed in as well and so far, so good. At the next fluid change at the 80K mark, I'll pump in 2 quarts of MaxLife and see how things go. I'm switching their van back to T-IV, ML does seem to work alright but the lower viscosity is a little concerning.
I see a lot of comments about the viscosity differences but the whole premise of the lower viscosity ATFs is that they are more shear stable. The old TIV shears down to the lower viscosity of the WS ATF so the two fluids end up about the same. That's why the Maxlife is recommended to replace both the older type and the newer type. Viscosity is not an issue.
I have an '05 Avalon, with some 75k on the clock; trans fluid has never been changed -to my knowledge.
I was in WalMart this morning, and noticed that both their "Universal ATF" and their Dextron VI are both marked recommended replacements for WS. Really? Anyone know what the spec for WS is?
I once owned a BMW 328i that specified "BMW ATF" - at some $60/quart (!!!). Several *much* cheaper national brands of "import ATF" and "Universal ATF" had the same spec.
I'll probably end up changing the ATF with WS, since I think it will only cost me a few dollars more, but I'm interested in what alternatives I have.
Thanks !!
I was in WalMart this morning, and noticed that both their "Universal ATF" and their Dextron VI are both marked recommended replacements for WS. Really? Anyone know what the spec for WS is?
I once owned a BMW 328i that specified "BMW ATF" - at some $60/quart (!!!). Several *much* cheaper national brands of "import ATF" and "Universal ATF" had the same spec.
I'll probably end up changing the ATF with WS, since I think it will only cost me a few dollars more, but I'm interested in what alternatives I have.
Thanks !!
Did some more searching, and the answer (an answer?) appears to be here:
Link Tacoma World
Quick list is below and appears that Dextron VI is suitable
Valvoline Maxx Life ATF
Kendall VersaTrans LV ATF (Made by Phillips 66 Lubricants)
AMSOIL -AMSOIL Signature Series Fuel-Efficient Synthetic ATF
Redline Synthetic Oil - D6 ATF
Schaeffer Oil - 205A Dexron® VI/Mercon® Automatic Transmission Fluid (Suitable for Aisin Warner JWS 3309, JWS 3324)
Pronto Full Synthetic Multi-Vehicle ATF Fluid (Distributed by National Pronto Association | Grapevine, TX 76051 | MADE IN THE USA)
Amalie Universal Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid (Amalie Oil Co. Tampa, Fl.)
Martin Lubricants - SynGard™ Multi-Vehicle Dexron® VI and Mercon® LV Automatic Transmission Fluid
SC Fuels - Multi Performance 500 MVP Universal ATF
Super Tech DEXRON VI Automatic Transmission Fluid
Chevron Havoline Synthetic ATF Multi-Vehicle Dexron-VI
And if your in Australia, Nulon - Full Synthetic Multi Vehicle Automatic Transmission Fluid.
Aisin ATF0WS - ATF, Automatic Transmission Fluid; WS-World Standard
Link Tacoma World
Quick list is below and appears that Dextron VI is suitable
Valvoline Maxx Life ATF
Kendall VersaTrans LV ATF (Made by Phillips 66 Lubricants)
AMSOIL -AMSOIL Signature Series Fuel-Efficient Synthetic ATF
Redline Synthetic Oil - D6 ATF
Schaeffer Oil - 205A Dexron® VI/Mercon® Automatic Transmission Fluid (Suitable for Aisin Warner JWS 3309, JWS 3324)
Pronto Full Synthetic Multi-Vehicle ATF Fluid (Distributed by National Pronto Association | Grapevine, TX 76051 | MADE IN THE USA)
Amalie Universal Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid (Amalie Oil Co. Tampa, Fl.)
Martin Lubricants - SynGard™ Multi-Vehicle Dexron® VI and Mercon® LV Automatic Transmission Fluid
SC Fuels - Multi Performance 500 MVP Universal ATF
Super Tech DEXRON VI Automatic Transmission Fluid
Chevron Havoline Synthetic ATF Multi-Vehicle Dexron-VI
And if your in Australia, Nulon - Full Synthetic Multi Vehicle Automatic Transmission Fluid.
Aisin ATF0WS - ATF, Automatic Transmission Fluid; WS-World Standard
Hey Guys,
here's some comparison of ATFs by Mobil and Valvoline:
Mobil JWS3324 Properties and Specifications
Valvoline ATF Properties and Specifications
[TD valign="top"]Colour[/TD][TD valign="top"]Red[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Viscosity, mm2/s @ 100 ºC. ASTM D-445[/TD][TD valign="top"]6,0[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Viscosity, mm2/s @ 40 ºC. ASTM D-445[/TD][TD valign="top"]28,5[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Viscosity Index ASTM D-2270[/TD][TD valign="top"]163[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Viscosity, mPa.s –40°C. ASTM D-5293[/TD][TD valign="top"]10.600[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Pour Point, ºC ASTM D-5950[/TD][TD valign="top"]-42[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Specific Gravity @ 15.6°C. ASTM D-4052[/TD][TD valign="top"]0,843[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Flash Point, COC, ºC. ASTM D-92[/TD][TD valign="top"]202[/TD]
Seems the fluids looks similar, both are LV.
I've found that MOBIL ATF is only available in Asian region (China, Taiwan) so You have to buy it in Toyota WS can...
Or You can get cheaper Valvoline ATF.
As for me I owned 2008 IS250 and flushed transmission with Toyota WS and changed filter it was fine when I sold it with around 150000km.
Right now I drive 2013 Is250 with the same transmission. At 40000km I flushed ATF and changed filter with Toyota WS, 80000km so it's time to flush it again but I'm thinking of flush with special machine and with Valvoline or Shell ATF.
here's some comparison of ATFs by Mobil and Valvoline:
Mobil JWS3324 Properties and Specifications
| Property | |
| Brookfield Viscosity @ -40 C, mPa.s, ASTM D2983 | 8000 |
| Color, Visual | Red |
| Density @ 15 C, g/cm3, ASTM D4052 | 0.854 |
| Kinematic Viscosity @ 100 C, mm2/s, ASTM D445 | 5.3 |
| Kinematic Viscosity @ 40 C, mm2/s, ASTM D445 | 23 |
| Viscosity Index, ASTM D2270 | 173 |
| Flash Point, Cleveland Open Cup, °C, ASTM D92 | >175 |
Valvoline ATF Properties and Specifications
[TD valign="top"]Colour[/TD][TD valign="top"]Red[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Viscosity, mm2/s @ 100 ºC. ASTM D-445[/TD][TD valign="top"]6,0[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Viscosity, mm2/s @ 40 ºC. ASTM D-445[/TD][TD valign="top"]28,5[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Viscosity Index ASTM D-2270[/TD][TD valign="top"]163[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Viscosity, mPa.s –40°C. ASTM D-5293[/TD][TD valign="top"]10.600[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Pour Point, ºC ASTM D-5950[/TD][TD valign="top"]-42[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Specific Gravity @ 15.6°C. ASTM D-4052[/TD][TD valign="top"]0,843[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Flash Point, COC, ºC. ASTM D-92[/TD][TD valign="top"]202[/TD]
Seems the fluids looks similar, both are LV.
I've found that MOBIL ATF is only available in Asian region (China, Taiwan) so You have to buy it in Toyota WS can...
Or You can get cheaper Valvoline ATF.
As for me I owned 2008 IS250 and flushed transmission with Toyota WS and changed filter it was fine when I sold it with around 150000km.
Right now I drive 2013 Is250 with the same transmission. At 40000km I flushed ATF and changed filter with Toyota WS, 80000km so it's time to flush it again but I'm thinking of flush with special machine and with Valvoline or Shell ATF.
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4WD
$50 site donor 2024
Always seemed Mobil is not that interested in selling ATF in my area … they had the 2nd of many Dex VI licenses issued … but other than selling to GM for a while it’s just not out there …
My neighbor put this into his T-IV speced Lexus and it drives just fine - he went to a distributor and got a case as they are super hard to find.
Although going with T-IV is less of a heartburn and no question about compatibly and needless afterthought.
www.pepboys.com
Although going with T-IV is less of a heartburn and no question about compatibly and needless afterthought.
Pennzoil Platinum High Mileage ATF, Quart | 1162204 | Pep Boys
www.pepboys.com
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