Toyo vs General tire vs Cooper
- Thread starter dan_erickson
- Start date
- Status
He's not skimping, he just (smartly) doesn't want to overpay for Michelins, Pirellis, Continetals, etc...
The General AS05 and Cooper CS5 he's looking at are great tires and a decent blend of performance and affordability.
Y'all would probably crucify me for putting Sunitomos on the Porsche... But guess what?
The General AS05 and Cooper CS5 he's looking at are great tires and a decent blend of performance and affordability.
Y'all would probably crucify me for putting Sunitomos on the Porsche... But guess what?
He spent $600 powder coating his wheels.
Not buying them. Not repairing them. Powder coating them.
And now he's wringing his hands over pretty-decent-I-guess tires when just $200 more would get him a tire that'd blow any of them into the weeds.
Don't tell us you seriously think that's smart.
Not buying them. Not repairing them. Powder coating them.
And now he's wringing his hands over pretty-decent-I-guess tires when just $200 more would get him a tire that'd blow any of them into the weeds.
Don't tell us you seriously think that's smart.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
He spent $600 powder coating his wheels.
Not buying them. Not repairing them. Powder coating them.
And now he's wringing his hands over pretty-decent-I-guess tires when just $200 more would get him a tire that'd blow any of them into the weeds.
Don't tell us you seriously think that's smart.
Sure I do.
He wanted his car to look nice, It does.
He wants a decent tire that will make his car handle better than stock. It will.
Just because his priorities don't align with yours doesn't make them wrong.
He spent $600 powder coating his wheels.
Not buying them. Not repairing them. Powder coating them.
And now he's wringing his hands over pretty-decent-I-guess tires when just $200 more would get him a tire that'd blow any of them into the weeds.
Don't tell us you seriously think that's smart.
Sure I do.
He wanted his car to look nice, It does.
He wants a decent tire that will make his car handle better than stock. It will.
Just because his priorities don't align with yours doesn't make them wrong.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
And now he's wringing his hands over pretty-decent-I-guess tires when just $200 more would get him a tire that'd blow any of them into the weeds.
Don't tell us you seriously think that's smart.
Just curious why the Continentals would put the other 2 "into the weeds"?
The Coopers have been out for a year now and if you search those that have them on performance type cars seem to like them. We don't know how they will wear but they certainly do grip well and initial reviews seem positive.
The General linked got good reviews from Tire Rack but may be noisy.
Not sure how the Toyo is but probably a decent tire.
All 3 have a 50k warranty so they should wear well.
I'd say flip a coin for those 3 - each should serve well.
And now he's wringing his hands over pretty-decent-I-guess tires when just $200 more would get him a tire that'd blow any of them into the weeds.
Don't tell us you seriously think that's smart.
Just curious why the Continentals would put the other 2 "into the weeds"?
The Coopers have been out for a year now and if you search those that have them on performance type cars seem to like them. We don't know how they will wear but they certainly do grip well and initial reviews seem positive.
The General linked got good reviews from Tire Rack but may be noisy.
Not sure how the Toyo is but probably a decent tire.
All 3 have a 50k warranty so they should wear well.
I'd say flip a coin for those 3 - each should serve well.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
He spent $600 powder coating his wheels.
Not buying them. Not repairing them. Powder coating them.
And now he's wringing his hands over pretty-decent-I-guess tires when just $200 more would get him a tire that'd blow any of them into the weeds.
Don't tell us you seriously think that's smart.
Actually for $600 the shop dismounted the tires, checked all FIVE wheels, straightened two, powder coated all five wheels, mounted and balanced four tires. I have a spare wheel.
He spent $600 powder coating his wheels.
Not buying them. Not repairing them. Powder coating them.
And now he's wringing his hands over pretty-decent-I-guess tires when just $200 more would get him a tire that'd blow any of them into the weeds.
Don't tell us you seriously think that's smart.
Actually for $600 the shop dismounted the tires, checked all FIVE wheels, straightened two, powder coated all five wheels, mounted and balanced four tires. I have a spare wheel.
Currently the Generals have a price advantage on Discount tires Ebay site. $632 - $170 in total rebates. So, $462 for Generals till the end of the month.
Cheapest I could find the Conti DWS 06 is $711. Conti would be my top choice but if I can save $250 and be happy then why not?
Cheapest I could find the Conti DWS 06 is $711. Conti would be my top choice but if I can save $250 and be happy then why not?
Originally Posted By: dan_erickson
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
He spent $600 powder coating his wheels.
Not buying them. Not repairing them. Powder coating them.
And now he's wringing his hands over pretty-decent-I-guess tires when just $200 more would get him a tire that'd blow any of them into the weeds.
Don't tell us you seriously think that's smart.
Actually for $600 the shop dismounted the tires, checked all FIVE wheels, straightened two, powder coated all five wheels, mounted and balanced four tires. I have a spare wheel.
Okay, call it $500 for just the powdercoating -- including on one wheel you're not even using. Heck, call it $400 just for the sake of argument. The point is the same: having freely spent that money on a purely cosmetic mod -- which is 100% your privilege -- you're now saying you want to save much less than that by cutting corners on one of the most vital functional parts of your car.
I have to notice that you also had your brakes powdercoated. And how did you get those wheels in the first place?
Again, all of this is 100% your privilege. Good on you for enjoying the money you have. The results are great, as you and many others seem to agree. It just makes it hard to take seriously your concerns with saving money on a function- and safety-related item.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
He spent $600 powder coating his wheels.
Not buying them. Not repairing them. Powder coating them.
And now he's wringing his hands over pretty-decent-I-guess tires when just $200 more would get him a tire that'd blow any of them into the weeds.
Don't tell us you seriously think that's smart.
Actually for $600 the shop dismounted the tires, checked all FIVE wheels, straightened two, powder coated all five wheels, mounted and balanced four tires. I have a spare wheel.
Okay, call it $500 for just the powdercoating -- including on one wheel you're not even using. Heck, call it $400 just for the sake of argument. The point is the same: having freely spent that money on a purely cosmetic mod -- which is 100% your privilege -- you're now saying you want to save much less than that by cutting corners on one of the most vital functional parts of your car.
I have to notice that you also had your brakes powdercoated. And how did you get those wheels in the first place?
Again, all of this is 100% your privilege. Good on you for enjoying the money you have. The results are great, as you and many others seem to agree. It just makes it hard to take seriously your concerns with saving money on a function- and safety-related item.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Just curious why the Continentals would put the other 2 "into the weeds"?
DWS 06, as I mentioned earlier.
No facts, got it. You did mention wet stopping power of the DWS 06 but that was very vague.
I checked Tire Rack - no comparison tests. A few magazine reviews which you can also find for the others. The only one with easily accessible review data is the General and it was #2 in Tire Reack's testing.
So tell me again, why would the Continental DWS 06 put the Zeon RS3-G1, General, and Toyos "in the weeds"? They all seem like comparable tires and would serve the OP well.
If I were the OP I'd look hard at the Generals if noise is not a concern (it was called out in the Tire Rack review) as they reviewed well and are cheapest. Then the Coopers as they have also gotten favorable reviews (and have a $100 rebate), and then the Toyos.
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Just curious why the Continentals would put the other 2 "into the weeds"?
DWS 06, as I mentioned earlier.
No facts, got it. You did mention wet stopping power of the DWS 06 but that was very vague.
I checked Tire Rack - no comparison tests. A few magazine reviews which you can also find for the others. The only one with easily accessible review data is the General and it was #2 in Tire Reack's testing.
So tell me again, why would the Continental DWS 06 put the Zeon RS3-G1, General, and Toyos "in the weeds"? They all seem like comparable tires and would serve the OP well.
If I were the OP I'd look hard at the Generals if noise is not a concern (it was called out in the Tire Rack review) as they reviewed well and are cheapest. Then the Coopers as they have also gotten favorable reviews (and have a $100 rebate), and then the Toyos.
Last edited:
My apologies, itguy08 -- I had misread your question. I read "what" where you had written "why", so I thought you were asking which Continental tire I was thinking of.
The reason you never see the DWS 06 compared against those other tires is that they're not comparable tires. Cooper, General, and Toyo are all subsidiaries that focus mainly on lower price points than their respective parent companies do in their own brands. Continental IS one of those parent company brands. It competes against Michelin, Bridgestone, Pirelli, Goodyear, etc.
Here's Tire Rack's test of the DWS 06, by the way.
As with any tier-1 tire, you can easily find a lower-priced option that'll compete on one or two attributes at a time. What you'll never find is a tire that's comparable in every respect at once. The DWS 06 has good enough grip and behavior in all conditions to hang with the best in its class, AND it's one of the best-made, AND it has among the best NVH characteristics, AND it's tied for the lightest of any tire in this thread, AND it'll retain good performance as it wears. Within its class, it has no major shortcomings except compared with the absolute category leaders (which aren't available in this size, or else they would be the ones to look at). There's no comparable option among the other three tires mentioned here; the question is which shortcomings you'll accept. And none of those tires will retain as much performance as they wear down.
Let's not trivialize wet braking, by the way. For a three-season tire, what's more important than being able to stop on a wet road? Any of these tires will have more dry grip than OP will likely need, so wet grip/traction is the difference-maker in terms of performance.
HTH.
The reason you never see the DWS 06 compared against those other tires is that they're not comparable tires. Cooper, General, and Toyo are all subsidiaries that focus mainly on lower price points than their respective parent companies do in their own brands. Continental IS one of those parent company brands. It competes against Michelin, Bridgestone, Pirelli, Goodyear, etc.
Here's Tire Rack's test of the DWS 06, by the way.
As with any tier-1 tire, you can easily find a lower-priced option that'll compete on one or two attributes at a time. What you'll never find is a tire that's comparable in every respect at once. The DWS 06 has good enough grip and behavior in all conditions to hang with the best in its class, AND it's one of the best-made, AND it has among the best NVH characteristics, AND it's tied for the lightest of any tire in this thread, AND it'll retain good performance as it wears. Within its class, it has no major shortcomings except compared with the absolute category leaders (which aren't available in this size, or else they would be the ones to look at). There's no comparable option among the other three tires mentioned here; the question is which shortcomings you'll accept. And none of those tires will retain as much performance as they wear down.
Let's not trivialize wet braking, by the way. For a three-season tire, what's more important than being able to stop on a wet road? Any of these tires will have more dry grip than OP will likely need, so wet grip/traction is the difference-maker in terms of performance.
HTH.
Thanks for the link. For some reason when I Googled the DWS06 the Tire Rack page returned didn't have a link to there test results, just the normal info page with user results.
Absent any tests for the other tires we can't conclude that the others are much worse than the DWS's.
Here's Tire Rack's review of the General Gmax Seems very very close to the Conti's.
The research for the Coopers is still fresh in my head as that's what I put on my vehicle last month. While testing from mags and whatnot is slim (Consumer Reports did test them but I lack a subscription), the reviews seem positive.
Review on a Camaro
On an STI
Time will tell on them but all indications are that they are a very very good tire. I've got about 1k on them and they have great traction wet or dry in my pig of a vehicle. Some of that is to be expected with new tires so it will be interesting to watch these as they age.
I don't think the OP can go wring with either of these tires.
Absent any tests for the other tires we can't conclude that the others are much worse than the DWS's.
Here's Tire Rack's review of the General Gmax Seems very very close to the Conti's.
The research for the Coopers is still fresh in my head as that's what I put on my vehicle last month. While testing from mags and whatnot is slim (Consumer Reports did test them but I lack a subscription), the reviews seem positive.
Review on a Camaro
On an STI
Time will tell on them but all indications are that they are a very very good tire. I've got about 1k on them and they have great traction wet or dry in my pig of a vehicle. Some of that is to be expected with new tires so it will be interesting to watch these as they age.
I don't think the OP can go wring with either of these tires.
If the TR page you saw is the one I saw, you have to scroll way down for some reason. Not sure why they formatted it differently from normal.
Regarding the lack of testing: Do you not see the contradiction there? We can't conclude those tires are worse than the DWS 06... but you can conclude they're just as good?
We could find positive reviews for just about any tire under the sun. If I find someone who has nothing but praise for the Chinesium Death Cylinder in 225/45/18, do I then get to conclude it seems just as good as the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 in that size? I mean, no one has compared the two, so I can't say the Death Cylinder is worse, right?
If you want to talk Tire Rack reviews, look at their complaints for each tire. They criticized the G-Max for feel and NVH compared with tier-2 tires in that class. They criticized the DWS 06 for having slightly less dry grip than the tier-1 tires in that class. These are not comparable complaints. Failing to clear a lower bar in two relevant areas is obviously worse than missing a higher mark in the least relevant area.
Want to bet Cooper and Toyo can succeed where General failed? I don't. Not trying to stop you from enjoying your Coopers; just trying to keep it real here.
Regarding the lack of testing: Do you not see the contradiction there? We can't conclude those tires are worse than the DWS 06... but you can conclude they're just as good?
We could find positive reviews for just about any tire under the sun. If I find someone who has nothing but praise for the Chinesium Death Cylinder in 225/45/18, do I then get to conclude it seems just as good as the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 in that size? I mean, no one has compared the two, so I can't say the Death Cylinder is worse, right?
If you want to talk Tire Rack reviews, look at their complaints for each tire. They criticized the G-Max for feel and NVH compared with tier-2 tires in that class. They criticized the DWS 06 for having slightly less dry grip than the tier-1 tires in that class. These are not comparable complaints. Failing to clear a lower bar in two relevant areas is obviously worse than missing a higher mark in the least relevant area.
Want to bet Cooper and Toyo can succeed where General failed? I don't. Not trying to stop you from enjoying your Coopers; just trying to keep it real here.
I don't think Tire Rack uses different ratings for different tires.
The General got a 7.55 on combined wet and dry.
The Conti got a 7.72 on the combined wet and dry.
I'm not seeing a huge difference there.
I'd say they are very very close.
I'm holding out judgement on the Coopers because they are so new and there's no testing on them compared to the competition. The initial comparisons and reviews from drivers seem to indicate they are a great high performance all season. I've run Coopers before and they were good. They are OEM on the Focus ST so they can't be all that bad.
The General got a 7.55 on combined wet and dry.
The Conti got a 7.72 on the combined wet and dry.
I'm not seeing a huge difference there.
I'd say they are very very close.
I'm holding out judgement on the Coopers because they are so new and there's no testing on them compared to the competition. The initial comparisons and reviews from drivers seem to indicate they are a great high performance all season. I've run Coopers before and they were good. They are OEM on the Focus ST so they can't be all that bad.
In a conversation with the Cooper engineer that posts on here, he said the RS3-G1 has better performance than the old RS3-S (a summer tire), but snow traction is just a bit less than the old RS3-A (all-season).
How important is snow performance? Do you have a separate set of winter tires? If snow traction is important, and you're only using one set of tires all year, don't get the Coopers.
How important is snow performance? Do you have a separate set of winter tires? If snow traction is important, and you're only using one set of tires all year, don't get the Coopers.
Originally Posted By: itguy08
The General got a 7.55 on combined wet and dry.
The Conti got a 7.72 on the combined wet and dry.
The same comparison suggests that the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S (8.43) has exactly the same margin over the tire it's replacing, the Pilot Super Sport (8.26). Or even less, if you look at that margin as a percentage of the total rating. I've owned both the Super Sport and the 4S back-to-back on the same car. I've even run them in pairs on different axles (e.g. 4S front, Super Sport rear) and swapped them back and forth. The 4S is a MAJOR improvement over the Super Sport. The reviews I've read suggest the same. All my friends who've owned both tires agree. Even Tire Rack, in their blurb summaries, had minor gripes about the Super Sport but literally ZERO gripes about the 4S. So if that's what a margin of 0.17 in those ratings means, I'd say your comparison proves my point about the DWS 06 nicely.
It doesn't prove my point about the DWS 06, of course. It doesn't prove anything on its own. Because these are averages of subjective ratings, from different tests, at different times, in different sets of conditions, against different sets of competitors.
Look at each number in the context of the competitors in each group, and... it's still super iffy, but marginally less so. Again, the G-Max was being compared against the tier-2 tires in that class, because it IS a tier-2 tire in that class. The DWS 06 is a tier-1 tire, so it was compared against other tier-1 tires. In that light, the true margin looks much bigger.
As an aside, common sense check: Continental owns General. They're not going to let General come that close to one of their best tires for two-thirds the money.
Originally Posted By: itguy08
I've run Coopers before and they were good. They are OEM on the Focus ST so they can't be all that bad.
Agree 100%. Any OE tire is going to be slightly tweaked for the application, but yes -- the fact that it's OE on a production car says something about both the brand and the tire.
This isn't about the DWS 06 being good and the rest being bad. They're not bad. They're fine. The DWS 06 is better. That's the point here -- no more, no less.
The General got a 7.55 on combined wet and dry.
The Conti got a 7.72 on the combined wet and dry.
The same comparison suggests that the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S (8.43) has exactly the same margin over the tire it's replacing, the Pilot Super Sport (8.26). Or even less, if you look at that margin as a percentage of the total rating. I've owned both the Super Sport and the 4S back-to-back on the same car. I've even run them in pairs on different axles (e.g. 4S front, Super Sport rear) and swapped them back and forth. The 4S is a MAJOR improvement over the Super Sport. The reviews I've read suggest the same. All my friends who've owned both tires agree. Even Tire Rack, in their blurb summaries, had minor gripes about the Super Sport but literally ZERO gripes about the 4S. So if that's what a margin of 0.17 in those ratings means, I'd say your comparison proves my point about the DWS 06 nicely.
It doesn't prove my point about the DWS 06, of course. It doesn't prove anything on its own. Because these are averages of subjective ratings, from different tests, at different times, in different sets of conditions, against different sets of competitors.
Look at each number in the context of the competitors in each group, and... it's still super iffy, but marginally less so. Again, the G-Max was being compared against the tier-2 tires in that class, because it IS a tier-2 tire in that class. The DWS 06 is a tier-1 tire, so it was compared against other tier-1 tires. In that light, the true margin looks much bigger.
As an aside, common sense check: Continental owns General. They're not going to let General come that close to one of their best tires for two-thirds the money.
Originally Posted By: itguy08
I've run Coopers before and they were good. They are OEM on the Focus ST so they can't be all that bad.
Agree 100%. Any OE tire is going to be slightly tweaked for the application, but yes -- the fact that it's OE on a production car says something about both the brand and the tire.
This isn't about the DWS 06 being good and the rest being bad. They're not bad. They're fine. The DWS 06 is better. That's the point here -- no more, no less.
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
In a conversation with the Cooper engineer that posts on here, he said the RS3-G1 has better performance than the old RS3-S (a summer tire), but snow traction is just a bit less than the old RS3-A (all-season).
How important is snow performance? Do you have a separate set of winter tires? If snow traction is important, and you're only using one set of tires all year, don't get the Coopers.
The snow traction on the RS3-A is very good for a UHP All Season tire. The RS3-G1 also has good snow performance. This is the first year in almost 20 years that I will be using an All Season tire in the Winter, and the tires I'm using are the RS3-G1. They aren't winter tires, but I think they will do fine.
In a conversation with the Cooper engineer that posts on here, he said the RS3-G1 has better performance than the old RS3-S (a summer tire), but snow traction is just a bit less than the old RS3-A (all-season).
How important is snow performance? Do you have a separate set of winter tires? If snow traction is important, and you're only using one set of tires all year, don't get the Coopers.
The snow traction on the RS3-A is very good for a UHP All Season tire. The RS3-G1 also has good snow performance. This is the first year in almost 20 years that I will be using an All Season tire in the Winter, and the tires I'm using are the RS3-G1. They aren't winter tires, but I think they will do fine.
Last edited:
I have never seen a Toyo Prox4 wear evenly.
- Status
