Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict

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Originally Posted By: CR94
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
For what it's worth, Blackstone Laboratories' take on oil viscosity and wear:

... If the oil is too heavy, the upper-end metals can increase. ...

Interesting! Is that statement "down to theoretical speculations" or to "real-life results"?

Well, certainly, they have a lot of empirical results at hand, being an oil-analysis laboratory.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Real-life results go beyond very restricted bench testing done at temperatures inapplicable to real life and certainly way beyond theoretical speculations. You should obtain your own empirical results. That's far more interesting to members here than endless theoretical speculations.


OK...three UOAs, and YOU formed conclusions
* 20 lubricates better than 40
* half of the iron is cam lifter interface
* the 20 improved lubrication in these areas
* through cold start flow
* and through better "immersion" and thus replenishment of additives.

With absolutely NOTHING to back any of it...is THAT real life proof of your statements ?

I, with the papers are pointing out that your cam wear/viscosity assertions are flawed.

Others are pointing out that the limited data set, replete with component failures do not support your conclusions.

Given your data set, if you concluded that oils that come in black bottles protect Ferarris better than silver or gold, you'd still rebut criticism of your "real world findings"
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
What does real-life driving have to do with Sequence IVA? The coolant temperature is 50 - 55 °C, which is neither cold nor hot. Moreover, I don't see any data in any case.


It's the industry standard for camshaft wear during warm-up....which is where the majority of the wear occurs...held specifically at warmup temperatures for accelerated aging.

Entirely pertinent to your assertion on camshaft wear in your case, and rebutting your statement that it's the couple of seconds after start until oil flows to the most remote location.

Again, ALL of the papers relate to the first MINUTES of operation, not that few seconds.
 
Originally Posted By: zeng
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
When they say the most wear happens when the engine is cold, believe it. This is where ultra-high-VI oils like TGMO 0W-20 SN triumph.

Agree with you most wear happens when engine is cold, majority of which is however corrosion wear according to SAE.
Corrosion wear does NOT corelate with either lower operating viscosity/film thickness or higher VI's.

Oops, miss Shannow's post.


The "corrosion" is the result of colder oil not burning out the moisture that results from combustion in a cold sump at startup. There is a school of thought that the flow of thinner oils removes contaminates a bit faster initially...

In anycase, I posted this in another thread from a link provided here back in the early 2000's as Ford explained the reasoning behind going to thinner (5W-20) oils:

"Why 5W20 Oil?
Some customers are reluctant to follow Ford's recommendation to use 5W-20 oil in their engines based on the incorrect assumption that Ford and other Auto Manufacturers only recommend 5W-20 oil in order to increase fuel economy. Using 5W-20 oil can increase fuel economy by about 6/10ths of a percent compared to 5W-30 and more if you are currently using a higher viscosity oil. This equates to an additional savings of 125 million gallons per year when used in all applicable Ford vehicles. Since its introduction in the 2001 MY, 5W-20 oils have saved up to 640 million gallons of gasoline in the U.S. or an equivalent 5.6 million metric tons of carbon dioxide emissions.

5W-20 oil is a thinner oil with lighter viscosity that creates less drag on the crankshaft, pistons and valvetrain. Additionally, the oil pump can pump thinner oil more easily, improving oil circulation. Any increase in fuel economy may not be noticed by the average motorist. Machined internal engine parts are more precise than the parts of 20 years ago. This means that clearances between moving parts are smaller and more exact. Thinner oil such as 5W-20 can flow more freely through the engine while still filling the spaces. Thicker oil is harder to push through the spaces between the parts. This causes the oil pump to work harder, which in turn increases oil pressure while simultaneously decreasing oil volume. A lack of oil volume results in a decrease of lubrication and cooling, which may decrease engine part life.

The lighter viscosity of 5W-20 oil flows faster at start-up compared to higher viscosity oils, which helps reduce engine wear in critical areas by lubricating parts faster. Valvetrain components at the top of the engine require immediate lubrication at start-up.

Oil additives are not recommended as noted in the owners manual. The American Petroleum Institute (API) certifies that oils such as Motorcraft 5W-20 already contain the necessary additives for friction, detergent, etc... The addition of additives may interfere and react with the additives already present in the certified oil."


https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub...amp;type=thread
 
That ford "advertisement" is full of inaccuracies...e.g.

* oil's not pumped through clearances to remove heat, the heat is typically generated within the shear space of the clearances.
* valvetrains don't start dry...and the tribofilm is always there except for the first few operations on new equipment.
* clearances, as we've discussed ad nauseum don't appear to be materially different in the last 30 years, and certainly the average oil molecule is going to make it into just about anywhere.

but as you posted earlier with the X-Files ad...people want to believe
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
That ford "advertisement" is full of inaccuracies...e.g.


So are you apparently, because you cannot tell the difference between "adverts" and technical bulletins. Who are the "adverting" too?????..

Quote:
* oil's not pumped through clearances to remove heat, the heat is typically generated within the shear space of the clearances.


They never specifically said that? Are you quoting them?

Or are you just gonna strawman and second guess automotive engineers?

Quote:
* valvetrains don't start dry...and the tribofilm is always there except for the first few operations on new equipment.


Again, where do they say valvetrains are dry? Yes they are coated with a very thin film of oil.

Quote:
* clearances, as we've discussed ad nauseum don't appear to be materially different in the last 30 years, and certainly the average oil molecule is going to make it into just about anywhere.


That seems to be a rather general, overweening statement...

Quote:
but as you posted earlier with the X-Files ad...people want to believe


Yes, like 'the only reason that Dr. Haas' Ferrari doesn't blow up on 0W-20 is that he must drive it like a 1940's grandmother caricature.' I mean I'm sure you know his exact driving habits...

Or that all Fords and Hondas from 2001 are dead in a secret 5W-20 Graveyard behind the elephants...
 
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Or that all Fords and Hondas from 2001 are dead in a secret 5W-20 Graveyard behind the elephants...


Every time you come back to that strawman... Again, find where I Ever suggested same...
 
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: Shannow
That ford "advertisement" is full of inaccuracies...e.g.


So are you apparently, because you cannot tell the difference between "adverts" and technical bulletins. Who are the "adverting" too?????..


Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
"Why 5W20 Oil?
Some customers are reluctant to follow Ford's recommendation to use 5W-20 oil in their engines based on the incorrect assumption that Ford and other Auto Manufacturers only recommend 5W-20 oil in order to increase fuel economy. Using 5W-20 oil can increase fuel economy by about 6/10ths of a percent compared to 5W-30 and more if you are currently using a higher viscosity oil. This equates to an additional savings of 125 million gallons per year when used in all applicable Ford vehicles. Since its introduction in the 2001 MY, 5W-20 oils have saved up to 640 million gallons of gasoline in the U.S. or an equivalent 5.6 million metric tons of carbon dioxide emissions.


Clearly they are trying to influence the recalcitrant customers who mistakenly beleive that Ford did it for economy, which they then go on to espouse the great benefits of this imptoved fuel economy...

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: Shannow
* oil's not pumped through clearances to remove heat, the heat is typically generated within the shear space of the clearances.


They never specifically said that? Are you quoting them?

Or are you just gonna strawman and second guess automotive engineers?


Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Machined internal engine parts are more precise than the parts of 20 years ago. This means that clearances between moving parts are smaller and more exact. Thinner oil such as 5W-20 can flow more freely through the engine while still filling the spaces. Thicker oil is harder to push through the spaces between the parts. This causes the oil pump to work harder, which in turn increases oil pressure while simultaneously decreasing oil volume. A lack of oil volume results in a decrease of lubrication and cooling, which may decrease engine part life.


Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: Shannow
* valvetrains don't start dry...and the tribofilm is always there except for the first few operations on new equipment.


Again, where do they say valvetrains are dry? Yes they are coated with a very thin film of oil.


Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
The lighter viscosity of 5W-20 oil flows faster at start-up compared to higher viscosity oils, which helps reduce engine wear in critical areas by lubricating parts faster. Valvetrain components at the top of the engine require immediate lubrication at start-up.


Well they are clearly exaggerating this "flow" thing to their target audience in their advertorial...if that's not the case, then why emphasize that the valvetrain needs oil "instantly", and that 5W20 flows better ???


Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: Shannow
* clearances, as we've discussed ad nauseum don't appear to be materially different in the last 30 years, and certainly the average oil molecule is going to make it into just about anywhere.


That seems to be a rather general, overweening statement...

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Machined internal engine parts are more precise than the parts of 20 years ago. This means that clearances between moving parts are smaller and more exact. Thinner oil such as 5W-20 can flow more freely through the engine while still filling the spaces. Thicker oil is harder to push through the spaces between the parts. This causes the oil pump to work harder, which in turn increases oil pressure while simultaneously decreasing oil volume. A lack of oil volume results in a decrease of lubrication and cooling, which may decrease engine part life.


either the engineers are mistaking/misquoting clearances and tolerances in their advertorial, or they are implying that 5W30 simply can't get places with their new improved machining techniques...

But, the advertorial has nothing whatsoever with Gohkan's assertion that his camshaft wear is reduced by the "full immersion" provided by 0W20, does it ?
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Clearly they are trying to influence the recalcitrant customers who mistakenly beleive that Ford did it for economy, which they then go on to espouse the great benefits of this imptoved fuel economy...

I must admit that the paragraph is one of the most ridiculous in the field. It's not all about fuel economy, but here are all the fuel economy benefits.
whistle.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
...

But, the advertorial has nothing whatsoever with Gohkan's assertion that his camshaft wear is reduced by the "full immersion" provided by 0W20, does it ?


Shannow me boy, I'm not going to nitpick everything here again because in the end, overall I think we agree on more of the typical, redundant topics that come up here than we disagree.

But if you read my comments, I actually agree (more or less) with you that hard conclusions can hardly be drawn on a few UOA's, which I think have very limited value in typical passenger car/light truck applications...

But nevertheless, if the shoe were on the other foot and if the 0W-20 weight oil showed higher "wear numbers" (whatever conclusion can be drawn from them), I doubt you'd be quite as dismissive of the data...
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Clearly they are trying to influence the recalcitrant customers who mistakenly beleive that Ford did it for economy, which they then go on to espouse the great benefits of this imptoved fuel economy...

I must admit that the paragraph is one of the most ridiculous in the field. It's not all about fuel economy, but here are all the fuel economy benefits.
whistle.gif



That's fine, but they clearly stated that the average owner would hardly notice them. Hardly a ringing endorsement of CAFE for the average Ford jockey...
 
True, but on a corporate average basis, every little bit helps.
For the average owner, the extra couple of bucks left in his jeans each month in fuel savings is also nice even if hardly noticed.
What's important here is that the fleet reduction in fuel c0onsumption was achieved using thinner grades without any apparent compromise in engine life.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Ford explained the reasoning behind going to thinner
The lighter viscosity of 5W-20 oil flows faster at start-up compared to higher viscosity oils, which helps reduce engine wear in critical areas by lubricating parts faster. Valvetrain components at the top of the engine require immediate lubrication at start-up.

Well they are clearly exaggerating this "flow" thing to their target audience in their advertorial...if that's not the case, then why emphasize that the valvetrain needs oil "instantly", and that 5W20 flows better ???


+1 ... Ford is embellishing the whole thin is better angle to convince people it's superior in certain ways. If a 5W-20, 5W-30 and 5W-50 all had the same basic viscosity at room temperature, then they should all flow the same at start-up, especially with a positive displacement oil pump. But when fully hot (200+ F), the thicker oil is going to provide better wear protection, especially in the journal bearings because the MOFT will be greater. And the thicker oil will definitely be a plus to prevent wear in engines pushed very hard under extreme conditions like heavy towing and track use where the oil temperatures can get 275+ F.
 
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
That's fine, but they clearly stated that the average owner would hardly notice them. Hardly a ringing endorsement of CAFE for the average Ford jockey...

Agreed, but it hardly makes a convincing argument to claim that it's not about fuel economy, then to spend the rest of the paragraph explaining why small improvements in fuel economy are important.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Not thick or thin but the right viscosity.

Didn't anyone learn anything from "Goldilocks and the Three Bears"

Engines want what THEY want, not what YOU want them to have
smile.gif


There you go. Oil needs to fit the current bearing clearances, the condition of the timing set and the valve train. Run what works, not some brand loyalty of stuck on some advertised viscosity.

If the coolant leak is truly fixed, I might suggest Delo 400 15W-30 SD (severe duty) and see what results you get. The number will be different. The add pak is different. The reaction with deposits will be different and that will toss off ions that have been trapped behind varnish and stuck in corners.

Most Fe metal comes from cylinder wear, or timing sets coming apart. Can't tell just based on UOA ...

This engine has sliding, not rolling, rocker arms, resulting in more iron wear in the valvetrain than newer engines with rolling rocker arms. I think about half the iron is coming from the camshaft as a result. There is a timing belt, not a timing chain.

As I said, I used HDEO for six years. I am no longer a fan of HDEOs in gasoline engines. First and most, they are too thick for gasoline engines. Second, it's a myth that HDEOs are cleaning oils. Some people believed that because HDEOs contained more dispersants to dissolve soot, it results in more cleaning. However, API SN oils are loaded with dispersants to fight sludge. They are specifically made to clean gasoline engines. Also, I don't think more ZDDP in HDEOs translates to less wear in gasoline engines. Modern PCMOs have excellents AW/EP additives (trinuclear moly etc.) synergistic to ZDDP that greatly enhance the AW/EP performance.

Excerpt from my post that mentions my HDEO use:

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I will repost the three newest UOAs and post two older UOAs. The 03/24/2013 UOA is TGMO 0W-20 SN and the 6/27/2012 UOA is Pennzoil yellow bottle (PYB) conventional 5W-20 SN. Note that before the Pennzoil 5W-20 SN, I ran 15W-40 HDEO, mostly Mobil Super 1300 15W-40 CJ-4, for about six years. Before that it was 10W-30 conventional, and before that it was 10W-40 conventional.

(See the post in previous page for the UOA images.)

One interesting trend is that the iron decreased after I switched from PYB 5W-20 to TGMO 0W-20 and kept decreasing until it became stable at 12 ppm. However, it jumped again when I switched to M1 0W-40. This doesn't necessarily mean that PYB was a bad oil. As I said, before PYB, I was running 15W-40 HDEO for six years. It could be that HDEO was causing more valvetrain wear because of less oil flow and the effect carried into the OCI with PYB.

Another thing we cannot rule out is that TGMO 0W-20 SN may have the excellent trinuclear moly antiwear/extreme-pressure additive and lots of it (116 ppm), which may be reducing the valvetrain wear, rather than more oil flow reducing the valvetrain wear.

" First and foremost, they are too thick for gasoline engines "
So you are saying that say a 15W-40 HDEO is too thick for any gasoline engine in any circumstance? If so, that is ridiculous.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
+1 ... Ford is embellishing the whole thin is better angle to convince people it's superior in certain ways. If a 5W-20, 5W-30 and 5W-50 all had the same basic viscosity at room temperature, then they should all flow the same at start-up, especially with a positive displacement oil pump. But when fully hot (200+ F), the thicker oil is going to provide better wear protection, especially in the journal bearings because the MOFT will be greater. And the thicker oil will definitely be a plus to prevent wear in engines pushed very hard under extreme conditions like heavy towing and track use where the oil temperatures can get 275+ F.


Here's the directive that the EPA gave Ford and Honda when they applied to have 5W20 accepted...for CAFE reasons.

https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=14177&flag=1

Same as in the Transport Safety Bureau CAFE regs, they must make every endeavour to have the end user USE the oil that they certified the vehicle on..."anti backsliding" rules
 
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