Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict
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Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Just go one size up from OEM and go with high efficiency full synthetic media.
That's basically the Toyota 90915-YZZF2 vs. Fram Ultra XG3614.
I measured it before and there is probably not enough clearance for the longer XG3600 anyway, but I can recheck.
Just go one size up from OEM and go with high efficiency full synthetic media.
That's basically the Toyota 90915-YZZF2 vs. Fram Ultra XG3614.
I measured it before and there is probably not enough clearance for the longer XG3600 anyway, but I can recheck.
I think filter media increases in efficiency with time (as it loads up with contaminants). So, a huge filter may actually have a lower efficiency over the life of the OCI, especially with your engine, which isn't generating near the particulates as today's GDI engines.
Wow, lots of animosity happening here. Don't understand why we can't keep it civil. Please gentlemen. Yes 90915 yzzf2 is really small. I don't like going too big though so I opt for yzzf1 which would be equal to a fram 4386.
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Originally Posted by madeej11
Wow, lots of animosity happening here. Don't understand why we can't keep it civil. Please gentlemen. Yes 90915 yzzf2 is really small. I don't like going too big though so I opt for yzzf1 which would be equal to a fram 4386.
Lots of animosity only originated from a single poster -- lmp4 -- suddenly out of the blue. He was at an all-out attack and making false claims about Toyota filter sizes and wrong assumptions about me as as well. I chose not to respond with animosity, as I usually do. Unfortunately, some people are hostile. It's in their brain chemistry. There is no reason for innate hostility not to be controlled though, even in anonymous settings. Civility can be learned and it can suppress hostility.
Wow, lots of animosity happening here. Don't understand why we can't keep it civil. Please gentlemen. Yes 90915 yzzf2 is really small. I don't like going too big though so I opt for yzzf1 which would be equal to a fram 4386.
Lots of animosity only originated from a single poster -- lmp4 -- suddenly out of the blue. He was at an all-out attack and making false claims about Toyota filter sizes and wrong assumptions about me as as well. I chose not to respond with animosity, as I usually do. Unfortunately, some people are hostile. It's in their brain chemistry. There is no reason for innate hostility not to be controlled though, even in anonymous settings. Civility can be learned and it can suppress hostility.
Originally Posted by madeej11
I don't like going too big though so I opt for yzzf1 which would be equal to a fram 4386.
Yeah, OEM is small. 4386 is one of the recommendations. 3614 is the same size as the Bosch recommendation 3330 and therefore it should fit. The only difference with 2951, which is almost impossible to find in the Ultra version, is the diameters of the hole circle and gasket. If it fits at all, 3600 would barely squeeze in, almost touching the A/C fan shroud, but there may not be enough clearance to screw it on. So, I think 3614 is a good choice, considerably oversized than the OEM but not too large to cause fitting issues.
I don't like going too big though so I opt for yzzf1 which would be equal to a fram 4386.
Yeah, OEM is small. 4386 is one of the recommendations. 3614 is the same size as the Bosch recommendation 3330 and therefore it should fit. The only difference with 2951, which is almost impossible to find in the Ultra version, is the diameters of the hole circle and gasket. If it fits at all, 3600 would barely squeeze in, almost touching the A/C fan shroud, but there may not be enough clearance to screw it on. So, I think 3614 is a good choice, considerably oversized than the OEM but not too large to cause fitting issues.
I also discovered a leaky valve-cover gasket; so, I will have to change it before the M1 EP 0W-20 SN PLUS goes in. Hopefully, no oil got on the timing belt.
I like the choice of the M1 ep 0w20. The VII's for the TGMO in general are too plentiful imo. Don't know how Amsoil SS in 0w20 flavor would compare to the M1. Should be pretty close though. Any opinions Gokhan?
Originally Posted by madeej11
I like the choice of the M1 ep 0w20. The VII's for the TGMO in general are too plentiful imo. Don't know how Amsoil SS in 0w20 flavor would compare to the M1. Should be pretty close though. Any opinions Gokhan?
Amsoil Signature Series is a great oil -- PAO-based and plenty of initial TBN. I think the reason why we see very low wear rates with Amsoil SS is exactly this -- plenty of reserve alkalinity throughout the OCI thanks to the slow-oxidizing (slow acid-releasing) PAO and high initial TBN. I'm starting to think most wear starts happening when the reserve alkalinity is depleted, but dnewton3 may come and say otherwise. The SN PLUS version with slow-depleting magnesium may have further improved Amosil SS's reserve alkalinity.
That said, M1 EP 0W-20 is half the price, also mostly PAO-based (at least about 80% or so of the base oil) and has great reserve alkalinity (Ca/Mg mixed detergent with decent initial TBN), which results in low wear rates. Note that EP 0W-20 is the only mostly PAO-based SAE grade, with thicker grades being not.
So, do you think you can reduce wear by going to higher viscosity? Perhaps, instead, you should think about to going to a better base oil (like PAO) and higher initial TBN with Ca/Mg mixed detergent (SN PLUS) that ensures good reserve alkalinity throughout the OCI.
I like the choice of the M1 ep 0w20. The VII's for the TGMO in general are too plentiful imo. Don't know how Amsoil SS in 0w20 flavor would compare to the M1. Should be pretty close though. Any opinions Gokhan?
Amsoil Signature Series is a great oil -- PAO-based and plenty of initial TBN. I think the reason why we see very low wear rates with Amsoil SS is exactly this -- plenty of reserve alkalinity throughout the OCI thanks to the slow-oxidizing (slow acid-releasing) PAO and high initial TBN. I'm starting to think most wear starts happening when the reserve alkalinity is depleted, but dnewton3 may come and say otherwise. The SN PLUS version with slow-depleting magnesium may have further improved Amosil SS's reserve alkalinity.
That said, M1 EP 0W-20 is half the price, also mostly PAO-based (at least about 80% or so of the base oil) and has great reserve alkalinity (Ca/Mg mixed detergent with decent initial TBN), which results in low wear rates. Note that EP 0W-20 is the only mostly PAO-based SAE grade, with thicker grades being not.
So, do you think you can reduce wear by going to higher viscosity? Perhaps, instead, you should think about to going to a better base oil (like PAO) and higher initial TBN with Ca/Mg mixed detergent (SN PLUS) that ensures good reserve alkalinity throughout the OCI.
Originally Posted by 1JZ_E46
I think filter media increases in efficiency with time (as it loads up with contaminants).
Not always - it depends on how well the media retains captured particles when deta-p increases across the media. If you hang out in the oil filter forum I've shown why a few times (Mann+Hummel test data). And if you understand how the ISO 4548-12 test efficiency is defined/calculated, it says by definition that filters that are highly rated must also retain particles well as the delta-p increases across the media.
I think filter media increases in efficiency with time (as it loads up with contaminants).
Not always - it depends on how well the media retains captured particles when deta-p increases across the media. If you hang out in the oil filter forum I've shown why a few times (Mann+Hummel test data). And if you understand how the ISO 4548-12 test efficiency is defined/calculated, it says by definition that filters that are highly rated must also retain particles well as the delta-p increases across the media.
Gokhan,
I really think you should start a thread detailing your chronology of "absolute" understanding as it has evolved and changed.
You've been emphatic in various stages about what makes a superior oil, and some months later taken another, emphatic, but nearly diametrically opposed view.
It would be interesting to see them all in the one thread...
I really think you should start a thread detailing your chronology of "absolute" understanding as it has evolved and changed.
You've been emphatic in various stages about what makes a superior oil, and some months later taken another, emphatic, but nearly diametrically opposed view.
It would be interesting to see them all in the one thread...
Originally Posted by Gokhan
So, I think 3614 is a good choice, considerably oversized than the OEM but not too large to cause fitting issues.
It's a small 4-cyl that doesn't put out a ton of GPM out the oil pump. Don't need a filter the size of a coffee can - one size up would be plenty. Use full synthetic if worried about filter flow (level of delta-p).
So, I think 3614 is a good choice, considerably oversized than the OEM but not too large to cause fitting issues.
It's a small 4-cyl that doesn't put out a ton of GPM out the oil pump. Don't need a filter the size of a coffee can - one size up would be plenty. Use full synthetic if worried about filter flow (level of delta-p).
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Gokhan
So, I think 3614 is a good choice, considerably oversized than the OEM but not too large to cause fitting issues.
It's a small 4-cyl that doesn't put out a ton of GPM out the oil pump. Don't need a filter the size of a coffee can - one size up would be plenty. Use full synthetic if worried about filter flow (level of delta-p).
Fram Ultra XG3614 will be delivered tomorrow and it's one or two sizes larger than the OEM but yet should fit perfectly.
I need to look up whether I used the OEM or Fel-Pro valve-cover gasket last time so that I could buy the opposite this time.
Originally Posted by Gokhan
So, I think 3614 is a good choice, considerably oversized than the OEM but not too large to cause fitting issues.
It's a small 4-cyl that doesn't put out a ton of GPM out the oil pump. Don't need a filter the size of a coffee can - one size up would be plenty. Use full synthetic if worried about filter flow (level of delta-p).
Fram Ultra XG3614 will be delivered tomorrow and it's one or two sizes larger than the OEM but yet should fit perfectly.
I need to look up whether I used the OEM or Fel-Pro valve-cover gasket last time so that I could buy the opposite this time.
Originally Posted by Gokhan
I need to look up whether I used the OEM or Fel-Pro valve-cover gasket last time so that I could buy the opposite this time.
It was the OEM valve-cover gasket eight years ago. This is what I get for doubting Fel-Pro. Fel-Pro will go in this time, which is also four times cheaper and much easier to get.
I need to look up whether I used the OEM or Fel-Pro valve-cover gasket last time so that I could buy the opposite this time.
It was the OEM valve-cover gasket eight years ago. This is what I get for doubting Fel-Pro. Fel-Pro will go in this time, which is also four times cheaper and much easier to get.
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by Gokhan
I need to look up whether I used the OEM or Fel-Pro valve-cover gasket last time so that I could buy the opposite this time.
It was the OEM valve-cover gasket eight years ago. This is what I get for doubting Fel-Pro. Fel-Pro will go in this time, which is also four times cheaper and much easier to get.
Eight years on an Asian valve cover gasket is pretty good. But, I use nothing but Fel-Pro.
Originally Posted by Gokhan
I need to look up whether I used the OEM or Fel-Pro valve-cover gasket last time so that I could buy the opposite this time.
It was the OEM valve-cover gasket eight years ago. This is what I get for doubting Fel-Pro. Fel-Pro will go in this time, which is also four times cheaper and much easier to get.
Eight years on an Asian valve cover gasket is pretty good. But, I use nothing but Fel-Pro.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
What's your main goal for running an over sized filter?
Add me to that question. I thought the filter on my 4Runner was a bit small but after seeing the engineering that went into this vehicle, I'll trust the engineers.
What's your main goal for running an over sized filter?
Add me to that question. I thought the filter on my 4Runner was a bit small but after seeing the engineering that went into this vehicle, I'll trust the engineers.
Primarily the purpose of doing this is Additional oil capacity. Filtration efficiency goes down, flow goes up all things being equal. In the past (2002-4 timeframe)for example I have run an oversized filter on that 3.4 Toyota engine you have. The Motorcraft FLS400. No damage occurred, but today having a better grasp, I would just run the recommended filter size.
.
Originally Posted by ka9mnx
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
What's your main goal for running an over sized filter?
Add me to that question. I thought the filter on my 4Runner was a bit small but after seeing the engineering that went into this vehicle, I'll trust the engineers.
.
Originally Posted by ka9mnx
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
What's your main goal for running an over sized filter?
Add me to that question. I thought the filter on my 4Runner was a bit small but after seeing the engineering that went into this vehicle, I'll trust the engineers.
If you are changing filter sizes, you are removing a constant in your comparison by varying oil capacity and filtration. Best practice would be to limit the variable to the oil.
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Gokhan
So, I think 3614 is a good choice, considerably oversized than the OEM but not too large to cause fitting issues.
It's a small 4-cyl that doesn't put out a ton of GPM out the oil pump. Don't need a filter the size of a coffee can - one size up would be plenty. Use full synthetic if worried about filter flow (level of delta-p).
Fram Ultra XG3614 will be delivered tomorrow and it's one or two sizes larger than the OEM but yet should fit perfectly.
I need to look up whether I used the OEM or Fel-Pro valve-cover gasket last time so that I could buy the opposite this time.
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Gokhan
So, I think 3614 is a good choice, considerably oversized than the OEM but not too large to cause fitting issues.
It's a small 4-cyl that doesn't put out a ton of GPM out the oil pump. Don't need a filter the size of a coffee can - one size up would be plenty. Use full synthetic if worried about filter flow (level of delta-p).
Fram Ultra XG3614 will be delivered tomorrow and it's one or two sizes larger than the OEM but yet should fit perfectly.
I need to look up whether I used the OEM or Fel-Pro valve-cover gasket last time so that I could buy the opposite this time.
Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
Primarily the purpose of doing this is Additional oil capacity. Filtration efficiency goes down, flow goes up all things being equal. In the past (2002-4 timeframe)for example I have run an oversized filter on that 3.4 Toyota engine you have. The Motorcraft FLS400. No damage occurred, but today having a better grasp, I would just run the recommended filter size.
Originally Posted by ka9mnx
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
What's your main goal for running an over sized filter?
Add me to that question. I thought the filter on my 4Runner was a bit small but after seeing the engineering that went into this vehicle, I'll trust the engineers.
Hmm, ZeeOSix says the filtration efficiency does not go down when the filter size increases.
Primarily the purpose of doing this is Additional oil capacity. Filtration efficiency goes down, flow goes up all things being equal. In the past (2002-4 timeframe)for example I have run an oversized filter on that 3.4 Toyota engine you have. The Motorcraft FLS400. No damage occurred, but today having a better grasp, I would just run the recommended filter size.
Originally Posted by ka9mnx
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
What's your main goal for running an over sized filter?
Add me to that question. I thought the filter on my 4Runner was a bit small but after seeing the engineering that went into this vehicle, I'll trust the engineers.
Hmm, ZeeOSix says the filtration efficiency does not go down when the filter size increases.
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