Thick oils and VVT systems

[camrydriver111]

One of the arguments of using thin oil is that engines were engineered for it.

However thickies are saying bearing clearances, piston clearances, etc. haven't changes in the last 4 decades. What about VVT systems?
 
Does using thick oils affect VVT system operation or is there no documented cases of this actually happening?

 

[Astro14]

One of the arguments of using thin oil is that engines were engineered for it.

However thickies are saying bearing clearances, piston clearances, etc. haven't changes in the last 4 decades. What about VVT systems?
 
Does using thick oils affect VVT system operation or is there no documented cases of this actually happening?

If thick oils somehow impeded VVT systems from working, then they wouldn’t work before the engine oil was fully warmed up.

Even a 0W16 when room temperature is far thicker than a 0W40 at operating temperature. Drop below zero for start up and the whole “VVT needs a thin oil” becomes a head scratcher - as that cold oil is now hundreds of times “thicker” than it will be at operating temperature.

If VVT can operate after a cold start, it can operate on “thick” oil.

 

[PWMDMD]

What Astro said - oil during cold weather is several orders of magnitude thicker than at operating temps and VVT works just fine. The difference between a 16 grade and 50 grade at operating temp is a tiny tiny tiny fraction of the difference in viscosity of cold vs hot oil with any grade of oil.

 

[Greasymechtech]

Some VVT systems trigger a code for overly thick oil. And no, I won't mention the brands of the offensive domestic automakers.

I know of a couple domestics that has a code for it, even though different similar engines in higher performance models use thicker oil. One of the domestic brands programmed their transmission to self destruct with incorrect ATF 30 years ago too, instead of programming a non-slip pwm-less failsafe mode if you accidently topped off with the competitor Dexron Mercon fluid.

So, its documented to trigger a CEL with a couple domestic manufacturers that I would never consider for a daily driver. I have no need for heartbeat fanboism, prefer wearing a straight-tie, and don't care for thick oil programmed immunity with 700-1000hp muscle cars or coal rolling straight 6's.

For the majority of vehicles, you can test it for yourself. Step up the HTHS ladder until you experience an issue. None of the Asian or Euro based vehicles with VVT that I've serviced complain about viscosity.

Mechanically engineered.... bulldung. Software programmed..... by pathetic automakers that I'll never buy from or recommend.

 

[BMW Dom]

One of the domestic brands programmed their transmission to self destruct with incorrect ATF 30 years ago too, instead of programming a non-slip pwm-less failsafe mode if you accidently topped off with the competitor Dexron Mercon fluid.

Well, now I'm interested.

Any more information about this?

 

[Greasymechtech]

Abandoned History: The Chrysler UltraDrive Transmission (Part I)

The recent Rare Rides Icons post on the 1990 Chrysler Imperial Super-K Gingerbread Cookie Edition generated a few comments not only about the subject in question, but its four-speed UltraDrive transmission. It seems more than one of you want a discussion - no - an essay on the UltraDrive. Wish...

www.thetruthaboutcars.com

 

[4WD]

Most of us that change grades vs the OEM’s “cap number” go from a 0W20 to a 5W30 - if that triggers you into a thick vs thin debate - maybe take up golf or fishing …

 

[Cujet]

On many Ford engines, for the last 20 years, a slightly higher viscosity has significant benefits with the cam phaser lifespan and timing chain lifespan. In fact, a "code" is much less likely in hot locations. Our local dealership went to 10W-40 on Modular V8's to prevent phaser warranty repairs. It eliminated the problem, 100%.

I'm running M1 EP 5W-30 (OEM is a special 0W-20) in my Jaguar F-Type, no codes, no issues. In fact, it helps prevent the known issues with rapid main bearing wear and chain issues.

There is a member here who had a code on his Chrysler product, he mentioned the oil was 5W-30. I find that interesting, because the very same engine is spec'd for 5W-30 in other applications. Someone speculated that the ECU could look at oil pressure and temp, and determine whether it's out of range.

Oil changes viscosity significantly via temperature, and temperature is not a constant either, depending on load and how long since startup, I have to wonder about all this.

 

[hrv]

Abandoned History: The Chrysler UltraDrive Transmission (Part I)

The recent Rare Rides Icons post on the 1990 Chrysler Imperial Super-K Gingerbread Cookie Edition generated a few comments not only about the subject in question, but its four-speed UltraDrive transmission. It seems more than one of you want a discussion - no - an essay on the UltraDrive. Wish...

www.thetruthaboutcars.com

That was one bad tranny that Chrysler made... Lucky I amost purchased a hew Dodoe Dynasty with one.. Glad I passed on it...

 

[BornSlippy]

On many Ford engines, for the last 20 years, a slightly higher viscosity has significant benefits with the cam phaser lifespan and timing chain lifespan. In fact, a "code" is much less likely in hot locations. Our local dealership went to 10W-40 on Modular V8's to prevent phaser warranty repairs. It eliminated the problem, 100%.

I'm running M1 EP 5W-30 (OEM is a special 0W-20) in my Jaguar F-Type, no codes, no issues. In fact, it helps prevent the known issues with rapid main bearing wear and chain issues.

There is a member here who had a code on his Chrysler product, he mentioned the oil was 5W-30. I find that interesting, because the very same engine is spec'd for 5W-30 in other applications. Someone speculated that the ECU could look at oil pressure and temp, and determine whether it's out of range.

Oil changes viscosity significantly via temperature, and temperature is not a constant either, depending on load and how long since startup, I have to wonder about all this.

M1 0W-40 in my 2019 Ram 1500 5.7L in the coldest part of the winter and it didn't throw a code.

 

[Fabulous50s]

Hmmmm....imagine moving from water to oil actually helps with bearing wear? Who wouldda thunk it?

On topic: cam phasers really are a simple mechanism. It's just 2 separate (or pairs of) cavities which a modulating solenoid sends oil to either the advance or the retard cavity. Weather that oil is thick (high oil pressure) or thin (low oil pressure) really is fairly irrelevant.

Now, thick(er) oil vs this 0w-16/20 is an OBVIOUS factor that auto manufacturers are using for incremental fuel mileage increase. And yes....the 1950s engines which I've rebuilt use the same bearing clearances that we still use today...and the old service manuals recommend a 10w-30 for winter and a 10w-40 or 15w-40 for summer.

 

[Wrenchturner44]

If thick oils somehow impeded VVT systems from working, then they wouldn’t work before the engine oil was fully warmed up.

Even a 0W16 when room temperature is far thicker than a 0W40 at operating temperature. Drop below zero for start up and the whole “VVT needs a thin oil” becomes a head scratcher - as that cold oil is now hundreds of times “thicker” than it will be at operating temperature.

If VVT can operate after a cold start, it can operate on “thick” oil.

The FCA 2.0 litre uses an 0w20 grade. This is supposedly spec'd because of the VVT, as well as low tension piston rings. Low tension piston rings do not like thicker oil, as more residue is left behind on down stroke and may be burned in next combustion cycle.

 

[Astro14]

The FCA 2.0 litre uses an 0w20 grade. This is supposedly spec'd because of the VVT, as well as low tension piston rings. Low tension piston rings do not like thicker oil, as more residue is left behind on down stroke and may be burned in next combustion cycle.

Interesting. Low tension ring considerations make sense to me, intuitively. The VVT doesn’t…

 

[Wrenchturner44]

Interesting. Low tension ring considerations make sense to me, intuitively. The VVT doesn’t…

This is what is seemingly so frustrating for those of us who take care of our vehicles vs. those of us who do not.

Low tension piston rings also do not like sludge or excessive carbon build up......so why have OEMs extended oil change intervals? I am asking this question retorically but it does not make sense to me.

Yes, I know todays oils due a much better job at cleaning, and have enhanced lubricity properties, but it makes more sense to me that smaller, thinner rings and piston ring lands need to stay clean to keep on performing as intended. I think Toyota was the first OEM that found this out with the oil burning issues they had early on with low tension ring designs. That in fact should be a lesson to us all.

 

[BornSlippy]

The FCA 2.0 litre uses an 0w20 grade. This is supposedly spec'd because of the VVT, as well as low tension piston rings. Low tension piston rings do not like thicker oil, as more residue is left behind on down stroke and may be burned in next combustion cycle.

Depending on where in the world and what vehicle, 0W-30 C2 oil is also recommended for that engine.

 

[Greasymechtech]

Automakers are playing their data. They have pushed the extreme limit of the oil for 50 years. If the oil gets better, they push beyond its capability even more. Did it last the warranty period? Was there a class action lawsuit? It gets laughable when they master the art of disposable products.

So, lower tension oil control rings here work just fine with thicker oils. We don't know if they are "low". No automaker stated how LOW their oil tension rings are now when compared to 'standard' rings. They are just "LOWER"... and can be a lot lower and just a little LOWER. Lower tension oil rings that went too low are a failure.
Its really sad. But, like most threads, not even sure someone is harvesting data on our opinions. This witch gets to be burned at the stake, or gang stalked, because all my engines are running shorter intervals, thicker oils with more additives.... and I am not worried about the MPG or catalytic at all. And, I wont buy an electric vehicle as long as the local gas station stays open.

 

[BornSlippy]

This is what is seemingly so frustrating for those of us who take care of our vehicles vs. those of us who do not.

Low tension piston rings also do not like sludge or excessive carbon build up......so it why have OEMs extended oil change intervals? I am asking this question retorically but it does not make sense to me.

Yes, I know todays oils due a much better job at cleaning, and have enhanced lubricity properties, but it makes more sense to me that smaller, thinner rings and piston ring lands need to stay clean to keep on performing as intended. I think Toyota was the first OEM that found this out with the oil burning issues they had early on with low tension ring designs. That in fact should be a lesson to us all.

Toyota has said the useful life of an engine is 150K miles. Using the recommended viscosity and OCI interval will get you to 150K miles. So you follow that, you think you are getting away with 10K mile oil changes cheap maintenance and life is good. Hit 150K miles and you have an oil burner and wonder where you went wrong and why you need $7K for a short block.

 

[Greasymechtech]

Don't forget your ATF, PSF, antifreeze/coolant, diff/xfer gear oils, BF.... too

Data says that many of the above are either lifetime or decade intervals..... just wait for the failure and pay up!

I don't see it as frustrating. I pity those without mechanical common sense.

 

[dbias]

Don't forget your ATF, PSF, antifreeze/coolant, diff/xfer gear oils, BF.... too

Data says that many of the above are either lifetime or decade intervals..... just wait for the failure and pay up!

I don't see it as frustrating. I pity those without mechanical common sense.

I agree. Any fluid will degrade with time and miles. Fresh fluid can only help with longevity whether it be atf, psf, differential etc.
I’ve kept my transit connect on the road running fine with regular fluid changes for over 200k miles now. Only non ordinary maintenance has been a water pump and valve cover gasket both done at over 170k.

 

[Fabulous50s]

Dude, it's marketing. Plain and simple.

Longer OCI, and longer life fluids reduce maintenance and that looks good on paper to the consumer and to the greenies.

Everything is a "lifetime" fluid its just how long that life is.....

Transmissions without dipsticks, heck even engined without dipsticks. Ford making PTUs on their AWD vehicles without any way to drain the fluid, crammed right up to the catalyst. Duh!

And all domestic automakers have been doing crap like this since the 70s. I rebuilt a 1977 Ford (Tremac) manual transmission, no drain plug. There is a boss cast into the case where it sho8ld be, buy never drilled and tapped for a plug. Well you know what I did during the rebuild!