With synthetic oil being better than conventional oil and the extended drains that synthetics allow is there any special oil filters that should be bought that handle synthetics and extended drains?I use Mobil-1/K&N and Wix.Thanks Joe
Synthetic oils/Extended drains
- Thread starter Dually
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synthetic oils work best with filters that can still flow at startup and catch the smallest particles, usually in the 2/10 micron size.
Bypass filters can extend oil drains even longer
using UOA.
Bypass filters can extend oil drains even longer
using UOA.
Triple_Se7en
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But is there a need to catch such small particles when I read posts here at BITOG about old engines with 300K using nothing but basic yucky Frams?????
Depends on exactly how you want the engine to look internally after 300k...
Dually, some of the posts got off target with your question. If you are planning on extending your OCI then, yes....a synthetic oil filter would be in order. Some of the BIG hitters here have said the K&N and Amsoil are really the only ones that can do the "15K to 25K" trek.
I personally would not have a problem bringing a Napa Gold (Wix) or Purolator to 10K. With that said, if you purchase the best oil for your engine, why not purchase the best filters?
I personally would not have a problem bringing a Napa Gold (Wix) or Purolator to 10K. With that said, if you purchase the best oil for your engine, why not purchase the best filters?
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I'll pile on LCM's wagon. If you're going for the long haul, and it's going to span a longer timeframe as well as mileage, then step up to the premium offerings. Amsoil, M1, PureOne, Wix. I tend to lean toward M1/PureOne for the edge on filtration level (haven't seen PC on Amsoil or Wix yet) ..but rate all in the race for durability over the duration of a long OCI ..with some time limit regardless of mileage (I'd say that over a year for all of them).
Gary--would you include Purolator Premium Plus in that group or only the Pure One? (My observations are that as far as construction quality goes the Premium Plus appears identical to the Pure One with the exception of the silicon ADBV and of course the more efficient medium--the reason I ask is because I'm willing to give up a little efficieny for more flow, especially if we're taking these filters out to 10K and beyond)
I think only the PureOne should be included because of the different media and amount of media.
Remember way back when changing the oil filter every other oil change was the norm??
Of course, the oil changes where at 2500 miles back then too.
Fram advertising(for one)changed that.
Maybe we are worring about oil filters plugging up (normal circumstances) waaaay to much.
Just my 2¢
Of course, the oil changes where at 2500 miles back then too.
Fram advertising(for one)changed that.
Maybe we are worring about oil filters plugging up (normal circumstances) waaaay to much.
Just my 2¢
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MADMIKE: Here's my take on it in terms of extended drains. Based on my observations (granted YMMV) I don't think we reach the holding capacity of a filter in 90% of our usage. I don't think flow enters too much into the typical user's scheme of things (but may in some applications/engine
il pump designs/state of condition/etc).
Particles are accumulative. The filter only filters so fine to a certain %. The longer the oil is in service ..the more particles will be present. That's probably why you can see the "every other change" under higher mileage OCI over a shorter time base in some engines. The particle production is low enough that it won't tax the filter's holding capacity ..but the accumulation of debris is more then the manufacturer wants banging around in there.
That is, changing the filter, in their opinion, isn't going to improve anything.
So, your PP, imo, will go the distance in terms of holding capacity. The ADBV may not last as long as you want from a annoyance standpoint ..but your level of larger particle retention and accumulation will be higher. Also consider that, in an extended drain situation where loading will surely occur, your PP will resemble the flow characteristics of a P1 at some point. They won't occur at the same time necessarily ..but they have to look like each other at some point in terms of resistance (if that ever proves to be a factor at all
).
Just to be clear in conceptual view here:
10k on PureOne may equal PP @ 13k 5k on a PureOne may equal 7k on a PP ..but in a race to 15k+ they have a whole lot of like conditions that they reach at different mileages. If you have flow issues with a PureOne ..you will have flow issues with a PP ..just a little later.
I'm naturally open to other POV
[ September 14, 2006, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
il pump designs/state of condition/etc). Particles are accumulative. The filter only filters so fine to a certain %. The longer the oil is in service ..the more particles will be present. That's probably why you can see the "every other change" under higher mileage OCI over a shorter time base in some engines. The particle production is low enough that it won't tax the filter's holding capacity ..but the accumulation of debris is more then the manufacturer wants banging around in there.
That is, changing the filter, in their opinion, isn't going to improve anything.
So, your PP, imo, will go the distance in terms of holding capacity. The ADBV may not last as long as you want from a annoyance standpoint ..but your level of larger particle retention and accumulation will be higher. Also consider that, in an extended drain situation where loading will surely occur, your PP will resemble the flow characteristics of a P1 at some point. They won't occur at the same time necessarily ..but they have to look like each other at some point in terms of resistance (if that ever proves to be a factor at all
Just to be clear in conceptual view here:
10k on PureOne may equal PP @ 13k 5k on a PureOne may equal 7k on a PP ..but in a race to 15k+ they have a whole lot of like conditions that they reach at different mileages. If you have flow issues with a PureOne ..you will have flow issues with a PP ..just a little later.
I'm naturally open to other POV
[ September 14, 2006, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
Thanks Gary! Will probably go with the PureOne as I'm only planning on taking it out to 10,000-12,000 miles. Interestingly enough, my '95 Maxima owners manual recommends 7,500 OCI's with the filter every other time (15,000 miles) which surprises me--way back in 1995 they were recommending 15,000 miles for the oil filter. And I thought Honda was crazy for their 20,000 oil filter change recommendations!
I've used both M1 and K&N oil filters for long drains when all I needed was a filter and I didn't want to order an Amsoil SDF. These dissected filters appeared to have excellent structural integrity even after 10k-12k of service.
The K&N with the nut on the end of the canister is very easy to remove without a strap wrench. If you're really AR, you can even lockwire the thing!
TS
The K&N with the nut on the end of the canister is very easy to remove without a strap wrench. If you're really AR, you can even lockwire the thing!
TS
dwendt44,
New engine tolerances have changed and I'm running thinner oil (5W20 ford spec). This combination seems less tolerant to dirt.
New engine tolerances have changed and I'm running thinner oil (5W20 ford spec). This combination seems less tolerant to dirt.
Gary..for another POV..
What you say seems reasonable..but... there's always a but isn't there..
Add in the factor of the by-pass setting.
Suppose you go extended drains on a filter ( or engine block one) that opens at 8 PSID.
How comfortable should one be keeping a filter on for real extended lenghts of time?
As the filters loads the by-pass could stay open longer and more often. Defeating the purpose--no?
Isn't it interesting; it seems those with the higher recommended OEM drain intervals also have higher by-pass valve settings? Food for thought..
What you say seems reasonable..but... there's always a but isn't there..
Add in the factor of the by-pass setting.
Suppose you go extended drains on a filter ( or engine block one) that opens at 8 PSID.
How comfortable should one be keeping a filter on for real extended lenghts of time?
As the filters loads the by-pass could stay open longer and more often. Defeating the purpose--no?
Isn't it interesting; it seems those with the higher recommended OEM drain intervals also have higher by-pass valve settings? Food for thought..
And another point of view....
Esters and Pao's attacking the paper? I believe M/Benz addresses this problem with Fleece? Amsoil is addressing it with synthetic fibers?
Esters and Pao's attacking the paper? I believe M/Benz addresses this problem with Fleece? Amsoil is addressing it with synthetic fibers?
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Yes, Mel ..I would tend to agree. When dealing with our fellow members ..they virtually never even hit the factory recommended drain intervals.
The basic school of thought that I subscribe to is that you've got a certain loading that's going to occur due to cold start/warmup contamination. Those who are frequent flyers, like yourself, are going to load a filter to a much lower degree then someone doing the same mileage over a much longer time, including many more cold starts. So someone who does 20k a year will probably have their filter last for 20k. In the case of a Honda, I'll say that the 20k a year user will have his/her filter be in no worse shape then the 10k annual OCI user. That may be a more correct way of saying it.
I base my feelings on loading and bypass usage upon my own tests with used filters. I found no reason to expect any routine bypass action even after 10k of usage. I personally saw no bypass levels of PSID in a 10k used PureOne. This filter has a high standard of filtration and should be loaded with more contaminants then a less fine filter would at the same mileage ... under the same service.
I think any filter can make it to 15k without undue loading issues. Naturally, this assumes that you're accumulating 15k in a reasonable amount of time.
YMMV
The basic school of thought that I subscribe to is that you've got a certain loading that's going to occur due to cold start/warmup contamination. Those who are frequent flyers, like yourself, are going to load a filter to a much lower degree then someone doing the same mileage over a much longer time, including many more cold starts. So someone who does 20k a year will probably have their filter last for 20k. In the case of a Honda, I'll say that the 20k a year user will have his/her filter be in no worse shape then the 10k annual OCI user. That may be a more correct way of saying it.
I base my feelings on loading and bypass usage upon my own tests with used filters. I found no reason to expect any routine bypass action even after 10k of usage. I personally saw no bypass levels of PSID in a 10k used PureOne. This filter has a high standard of filtration and should be loaded with more contaminants then a less fine filter would at the same mileage ... under the same service.
I think any filter can make it to 15k without undue loading issues. Naturally, this assumes that you're accumulating 15k in a reasonable amount of time.
YMMV
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I think that we may find that some filters, with higher bypass settings) for some applications are used where higher visc oils are used with somewhat sophisticated VVT and whatnot are also employed. Take our VW/AUDI 30-33 bypass setting. With pressure regulation being critical for the VVT cam advancers and whatnot, they need to have the filter sustain substantial PSID during warm up with higher visc oils that they typically spec. (5w-40 synths). Other engines that spec lower visc oils probably do not need this type of media protection.
I digress....
New filter media for gasoline engines
To meet the increased chemical and thermal requirements on the oil filter in modern highperformance gasoline engines, MAHLE has developed new fully synthetic filter elements.
In addition to ever more intense competition and increased environmental awareness calling for new concepts aimed at reducing costs and saving resources, new lubricants and fuels have been developed in response to new combustion processes and the need to reduce fuel consumption. The use of new fully synthetic highperformance oils enables service intervals of up to 50,000 km to be achieved – a tendency that is increasing. Owing to the new underlying conditions, conventional filter base materials are becoming less and less suitable, as the excessively high nitration of the oils leads to an embrittlement of the filtration medium. A new fully synthetic fleece made from polyester has therefore been developed. The twin-layer medium consists of a support and filtration layer so as to achieve the highest filtration performance, prevent fold block formation and attain optimum stability. The new oil filter medium is seven times more resistant to ageing than pure cellulose fibers and, at the same time, provides increased dirt absorption capacity with the same or even lower pressure losses.
To manufacture these high-performance filter elements, MAHLE has developed a new production and machining process. During the extensive testing and verification processes, it became clear that an external support for the paper block was necessary on account of the diagonal flow of untreated oil and so as to prevent fold block formation. An innovative solution was realized here as well. The new filter medium was tested in several new gasoline engines and released for series application.
New filter media for diesel engines
MAHLE has developed a new combination comprising polyester fibers and a plastic support fabric especially for diesel engines. Embedded in plastic end disks, the filter element is completely metal-free and hence fully incinerable.
These so-called mixed-fiber filter media consist of cellulose fibers to which up to 30 percent plastic fibers are admixed. Besides the clear increase in dirt absorption capacity, this also results in a significant improvement in the resistance against ageing products in the oil. This enables service intervals of up to 50,000 km to be achieved in passenger car applications, and even up to 150,000 km for commercial vehicles.
Oil and fuel screw-on filters
Despite a clear trend towards filter elements made from fully incinerable, easily disposable materials, screw-on cartridges are still enjoying considerable popularity thanks to their compact design, their service-friendly handling and their attractive price-performance ratio. MAHLE provides screw-on filters in all current sizes for lubricant, fuel and hydraulic oil for a variety of modern applications.
I wouldn't call MOBIL ONE or WIX or K&N "high end". Good, yes, but there is a whole other level beyond them that meets stricter standards (and to which the above won't even cross-reference:
DONALDSON "Endurance"
FLEETGUARD "Stratapore"
BALDWIN "HPG"
with the preference to the first two. The commercial and heavy equipment manufacturers spec them for "Extra Heavy Duty/Extended Service" applications.
I run 7-9,000 mile OCI's on REDLINE with the option of going as far as 10,000. FP-60 and LC-20 as well.
DONALDSON "Endurance"
FLEETGUARD "Stratapore"
BALDWIN "HPG"
with the preference to the first two. The commercial and heavy equipment manufacturers spec them for "Extra Heavy Duty/Extended Service" applications.
I run 7-9,000 mile OCI's on REDLINE with the option of going as far as 10,000. FP-60 and LC-20 as well.
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