Specs of Dexos1G2 vs SN+

[avi1777]

hi guys,
someone wrote in another thread that d1g2 is a higher/better spec than the sn+,
can someone elaborate on the level of diferente specs?
for example-d1g2 is higher then sn+,a5 is higher than api something ex.
tnx.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

It's funny how GM was able to skirt the M-Moss Act prohibiting tie in sales by requiring a licensed oil be used rather than a GM branded oil outright. They basically found a way around this and I'm surprised other vehicle mfgs haven't followed suit...but I digress....‚

All that said, I can't recall what the specific differences are between ILSAC GF5 and D1G2 but in any event GF-6 is due out in the spring of next year should address the gap (at least that's the intention as I understand it)... API SN(+) RC addresses fuel economy, deposits and lspi issues. I think, and don't quote me on this, the difference between a D1G2 oil and a ILSAC GF5 oil has to do with timing chain wear?🤔🤔

 

[jbutch]

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
It's funny how GM was able to skirt the M-Moss Act prohibiting tie in sales by requiring a licensed oil be used rather than a GM branded oil outright. They basically found a way around this and I'm surprised other vehicle mfgs haven't followed suit...but I digress....‚

All that said, I can't recall what the specific differences are between ILSAC GF5 and D1G2 but in any event GF-6 is due out in the spring of next year should address the gap (at least that's the intention as I understand it)... API SN(+) RC addresses fuel economy, deposits and lspi issues. I think, and don't quote me on this, the difference between a D1G2 oil and a ILSAC GF5 oil has to do with timing chain wear?🤔🤔


+1

Timing chain and a slightly lower NOACK I believe (15% vs 13%).

 

[blupupher]

When you look at the lubrizol spider chart, it does show that the dexos spec has more parameters (wear, sludge, fuel economy) than SN+.

That said, most SN+ oils are D1G2.

Is there a licensing fee that is paid to GM to have it on the bottles?
If that is the case, seems GM has found a way to make some money for doing nothing except putting out a requirement for oil. If so, not cool and it sets a bad precedent.
The whole purpose of API is to get an oil rating system that can be used for all vehicles.
I agree with Mad_Hatter, this close to a Magnuson-Moss violation (again, only if there is a fee GM receives from oil blenders to have the rating on bottles).
I have no issue if it is a spec GM wants and gives it to the oils that are tested and meet the spec without paying a fee.

 

[4WD]

If you don't understand the difference between what all OEM's require … think of "trust but verify" … perhaps specific tests and/or engine line.

If you don't appreciate what GM has done to improve both motor oil and ATF … buy all means stay away from products that have Dexos. GM still has a large market share … and a huge portion of that is out working for a living everyday

 

[4WD]

Suddenly everyone is a lawyer here … right

 

[avi1777]

the highest spec today is the mb.229.5 and or the Porsche one right?
and a different question with your permission guys,i dont know if there is answer to that but is there a spec that makes engines work quietly than others,lets say a3 spec vs api,is it got to do with the oil weight,spec,brand or its all a placebo effect?

 

[buster]

It depends how you define "highest".

If you look at an oil like Mobil 1 AP, it's quite impressive. The oxidation stability of this oil and wear control is remarkable for an oil with a SA of .8.
There are few oils that can match it. The HT/HS though is under 3.5, which is what you need to meet the Porsche spec. So it's hard to really say which spec is the most demanding.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by blupupher
When you look at the lubrizol spider chart, it does show that the dexos spec has more parameters (wear, sludge, fuel economy) than SN+.

That said, most SN+ oils are D1G2.

Is there a licensing fee that is paid to GM to have it on the bottles?
If that is the case, seems GM has found a way to make some money for doing nothing except putting out a requirement for oil. If so, not cool and it sets a bad precedent.
The whole purpose of API is to get an oil rating system that can be used for all vehicles.
I agree with Mad_Hatter, this close to a Magnuson-Moss violation (again, only if there is a fee GM receives from oil blenders to have the rating on bottles).
I have no issue if it is a spec GM wants and gives it to the oils that are tested and meet the spec without paying a fee.


Yes, the oil producer must purchase the initial license which IIRC is $1000, then there's the producer pays a per gallons produced fee (they may have changed that to a flat tier like fee??). GM requires D1G2 specd oil, they don't say you have to buy it from them but any D1G2 oil you buy they make money off of. Creative way to get around Mag-Moss if you ask me. Otherwise, If they told you that you have to buy GM oil they'd have to give it to you for free...fwiw, many SN+ oils meet D1G2 specs but the oil producer doesn't want to for whatever reason be strong-armed into paying the licensing??

While GM may not be technically violating M-M, it sure seems like they're not acting in the spirit of the Act. And I don't need to be an attorney to have that opinion.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...08830/dexos_fees:__How_Much_is_GM_&a

https://www.bgprod.com/blog/gf-5-and-dexos-you-get-what-you-pay-for/

 

[4WD]

How many GM's do you own … ?

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by 4WD
How many GM's do you own … ?

What does that have to do with the current discussion? But if you must know, none - currently. However my last GM was a Lumina.

 

[4WD]

Trying to figure out why this bothers you …

Here is my work engine and my play engine … oil brand or spec ?

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by 4WD
Trying to figure out why this bothers you..

I think the better question is, why doesn't it bother you?

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by 4WD
Trying to figure out why this bothers you..

I think the better question is, why doesn't it bother you?


Better than what ? You have no case to make … if you are now a legal analyst on an oil site … just who suffered what loss in your big claim against GM ?

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by 4WD
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by 4WD
Trying to figure out why this bothers you..

I think the better question is, why doesn't it bother you?


Better than what ? You have no case to make … if you are now a legal analyst on an oil site … just who suffered what loss in your big claim against GM ?

What in the $&_@ are you going on about legal this or that and me being or not being an attorney? I never said I was, nor did I ever say GM was doing anything illegal - I said they've found a creative way to tie in a product sale. Wait, let's back up...have you even ever read the M-M Warranty Act?🤔

Wow...

 

[bbhero]

Not trying to give you a hard time here at all man... Not at all... Just thinking about this stuff..

Well what does Porsche do in regards to A40 oil ???

Or MB in regards to 229.5 ???



I don't have a problem GM doing what they do with the Dexos Gen 2 approval oils... And I don't believe it adds much cost to any oil that is approved.... You can get Warren Distribution oil that meets that spec for a everyday price of $3.79 a qt... And cheaper when on sale obviously.... Cam2 Dexos1 Gen 2 synthetic is the same price. Valvoline advanced full synthetic is $4.59 a qt on roll back at Walmart... Chevron Havoline is $3.33 a qt that is Dexos Gen 2 approved.

And it actually is a fair amount stronger spec than API SN. .

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by bbhero

Not trying to give you a hard time here at all man... Not at all... Just thinking about this stuff..
Well what does Porsche do in regards to A40 oil ???
Or MB in regards to 229.5 ???

Do Porsche or MB charge an oil producer to call their oil "approved"...not "meets" but "approved"?

Do either of those country's have an equivalent law to M-M prohibiting tie in sales?

Again, what GM is doing is not technically in violation of the M-M Act I agree with that assessment...but is it in the spirit of the law?..in my opinion no. You're free to hold a different view. Heck, if I were Briggs and Stratton I'd probably do similar for lubes used in their mowers. Great way to establish another revenue stream. I honestly don't see why more mfgs don't do this?

I suppose if lawmakers had a problem with it, they could change the law.

 

[bbhero]

I could be wrong... But I think Porsche A40 means that the oil manufacturer must pay for the testing to be done to make sure it meets that standard... And the same for MB approved oils.... Again...could be wrong... Just not sure... Big difference between "meets" and approved... I want a approved oil in my big money motor.... Not a meets... A oil company that paid money for the actual testing to be done.

And remember... Any oil blender can put anything on a label...

I like the Dexos Gen 2 synthetic oil made by Cam2 I have in my VQ right now...

But on the PDS about it they say it meets Porsche C30... I don't necessarily believe that... Porsche C30 oils typically have a HTHS of 3.5 or just a bit higher than that and that oil is a low saps oil has well. Which the Dexos approved oils are mid level saps oils.... And the highest HTHS of any Dexos approved oil is 3.2...

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by bbhero
I could be wrong... But I think Porsche A40 means that the oil manufacturer must pay for the testing to be done to make sure it meets that standard... And the same for MB approved oils.... Again...could be wrong... Just not sure... Big difference between "meets" and approved... I want a approved oil in my big money motor.... Not a meets... A oil company that paid money for the actual testing to be done.

And remember... Any oil blender can put anything on a label...

I like the Dexos Gen 2 synthetic oil made by Cam2 I have in my VQ right now...

But on the PDS about it they say it meets Porsche C30... I don't necessarily believe that... Porsche C30 oils typically have a HTHS of 3.5 or just a bit higher than that and that oil is a low saps oil has well. Which the Dexos approved oils are mid level saps oils.... And the highest HTHS of any Dexos approved oil is 3.2...

All things being equal a D1G2 oil should provide better wear protection for your timing chain and a lower noack (it's been said), so in some sense it's a "better" lube than an equivalent non Dexos lube. Now that changes with GF6 because I believe GF6 incorporates the same requirements as D1G2 with respect to timing chain wear. Kudo's to GM for pushing oil formulators to make better products...we all benefit from this whether or not we buy a Dexos "approved" oil.

 

[zuluplus30]

D1G2 is absolutely a better oil than SN+ in terms of deposits and wear. How D1G2 stacks up against GF-6 remains to be seen. But as previously mentioned, whether you agree with GM or not on the business aspect of Dexos royalties, you have to agree they have pushed the oil industry to do better. It's impossible to find a conventional base Dexos oil and there are very few syn blends. It also pushes consumers who are only price driven and before would have blindly put a $19.95 Jiffy Lube oil change into their TGDI motors and run it for 10k miles to start using better fluids.