South Australia Energy Experiment Continued....

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Pandabear,
good post.

Yes, there have been studies done by here via the market operator and universities on what 100% renewable looks like...

http://ceem.unsw.edu.au/sites/default/fi...2016-03-02a.pdf

tripling the wholesale rates, and 20-30% higher bills.

Note the reliance on schedulable bioengergy...with doubt that there's enough green stuff to burn to meet the assumptions.



Great paper.

There are lots of things we took for granted in fossil fuel though. We design and install power plants and run the grid in reduced capacity most of the time, so that consumers do not have to watch the rate by the minutes to see when to turn on and off the AC, electric cloth dryers, bake a loaf of bread, etc.

Variable electricity rate would resolve at least 1/3 of the rate and cost problems.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: turtlevette

Who are you? Thomas Edison? DC doesn't solve a thing.

The world is still AC and you'll have to synch up at the end of the transmission line.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current



Why should I think that the guy who wrote that knows any more than I do? People point to Wikipedia like it's straight from the mouth of God. Those links are rife with opinions and errors.

 

[SHOZ]

World’s Biggest Solar + Battery Storage Plant Ready To Build In South Australia

The world’s biggest solar and battery storage plant – and Australia’s biggest solar farm – could begin construction this year, after the project was formally launched in Adelaide on Thursday.

The developer of the $1 billion South Australian project, Lyon Group, said construction of the plant, which will include 330MW of solar PV and a 100MW/400MWh battery storage system, would begin in the coming months, with operations set to commence by the end of 2017.

“Riverland Solar Storage … will be Australia’s biggest solar farm with 3.4 million solar panels and will also include 1.1 million batteries,” said Lyon partner David Green, at the project launch.

Lyon’s plans to build the record-breaking solar plant in South Australia were first unveiled in September last year, along with plans to build a minimum of 100MW of solar PV paired with 100MWh of battery storage (supplied by AES) near Roxby Downs.

 

[Shannow]

100MW...thats less then 6% of the state's load as of this morning...and 200MWh of storage is enough to keep the lights on for 7 minutes...pretty impressive eh ?

to continue on with the great South Australian Experiment

Boughta bunch of trailer mounted Gas Turbines and market them as "hybrid fueled", when its merely the tick box for diesel/natural gas on the options sheet...two years of running diesel to get through summer.

Now they are going to spend $4,300/KW capacity, and 7.8c/KWh produced 150MW bird incinerator.

Note in this article that the 150MW is described as quite modest in the scheme of things, which the numbers reflect.

That's comparible to building a nuke, and twice as expensive (capital and generation cost) then the coal that they gleefully pushed out of the market.

 

[turtlevette]

They'll get more cost efficient as more are built.

 

[SHOZ]

They work pretty good in the USA. Must be a regulation problem.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
They work pretty good in the USA. Must be a regulation problem.


They ?

Which "they" are you talking about ?



and what "regulation" problem are you talking about.

e.g. we have ones that don't let you install home panels on a suicide plug...which is a good thing.

 

[SHOZ]

Giant Battery Set for Testing in the Australian Outback

Elon Musk’s giant battery being built in the Australian outback will be energized in coming days and begin testing, indicating Tesla Inc. is on track to meet a 100-day self-imposed deadline to install the system.

Tesla power packs have now been fully installed on a site near a wind farm north of Adelaide and will be tested to ensure the battery meets standards laid down by the energy market operator, the South Australia state government said in a statement Thursday.

 

[Shannow]

Yep,
5% of a summer afternoon peak, for 4% of a day...it's going to be a great thing. That's why the politicians, TESLA, and the greens keep using the word "Giant" in the same sentence as it.

Not quoted is how long these things need to cool and stabilise after a charge before they can be heavily discharged, making it difficult to manage the peaks...

When do you loose your load ?

Price, emergency grid stability ?

Schedule it every afternoon peak ($300/MWh), and daily nett is $200/MWh ($20k per afternoon) ...what's the payback, when the Levelised Cost of Storage is $250/MWh.

Save it for the emergency hot days...$1.5M per event in that half dozen hours per annum that the price goes to VOL.

Can't comment on the payback period, as they won't disclose what the taxpayers have paid for the giant battery.

With the charge/discharge cooling times, it's not even going to be much use for stability control.

BUT as per the title of the thread, it's all part of the great South Australian Energy Experiment.

 

[4WD]

Drove about 50 miles yesterday and saw two things:

1) a four GTG plant that just added 4 more GTG’s and additional cooling systems
2) a big solar panel spread about 2/3 compete … and all the workers are gone …

 

[Shannow]

Where was that ?

 

[4WD]

South Texas … I’m back from Oz trip …

 

[Shannow]

Phew, thought I missed something

 

[4WD]

Ha, sorry ~ couple other things nearby I’m waiting to hear results on … a modular at the wellhead GTL plant. (Breaks down into truck loads like a rig) … and another GTG plant putting in CO2 sequestering kit for an EOR project associated with a very old oilfield … hope these work …

 

[SHOZ]

Report: Tesla's Australian battery project steps in after coal units fail

Quote:
When the coal facility's Unit 3 went down, the plant's Unit 1 ultimately replaced the power, but not before Tesla's Hornsdale battery injected more than 7 MW onto the grid, according to the Gladstone Observer. While Hornsdale storage project is much smaller than the almost-1,700 MW coal plant, it can rapidly respond to operational issues in order to maintain grid reliability.

Tesla's new system size exceeds San Diego Gas & Electric's 120 MWh Escondido storage facility, in California. The Hornsdale plant is currently the largest lithium-ion battery in the world. Before SDG&E's Escondido project came online, Tesla briefly held the distinction for its 80 MWh facility for Southern California Edison. However, two other Australian energy projects could soon eclipse Tesla's achievement.

In Brisbane, renewable energy firm Lyon group earlier this year announced plans for a 100 MW/400 MWh battery storage system at a wind facility. Queensland's SolarQ is planning a lithium-ion storage system of up to 4,000 MWh to be paired with a 350 MW solar facility.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Report: Tesla's Australian battery project steps in after coal units fail

Quote:
When the coal facility's Unit 3 went down, the plant's Unit 1 ultimately replaced the power, but not before Tesla's Hornsdale battery injected more than 7 MW onto the grid, according to the Gladstone Observer. While Hornsdale storage project is much smaller than the almost-1,700 MW coal plant, it can rapidly respond to operational issues in order to maintain grid reliability.

Tesla's new system size exceeds San Diego Gas & Electric's 120 MWh Escondido storage facility, in California. The Hornsdale plant is currently the largest lithium-ion battery in the world. Before SDG&E's Escondido project came online, Tesla briefly held the distinction for its 80 MWh facility for Southern California Edison. However, two other Australian energy projects could soon eclipse Tesla's achievement.

In Brisbane, renewable energy firm Lyon group earlier this year announced plans for a 100 MW/400 MWh battery storage system at a wind facility. Queensland's SolarQ is planning a lithium-ion storage system of up to 4,000 MWh to be paired with a 350 MW solar facility.


While that's really neat propaganda, what does it really mean? If Unit 1 ultimately stepped in to take the load, and the battery only contributed 7MW, while it makes for a great sound bite, what would have happened without the battery? Probably the same thing that happened before the battery was built: nothing.

What we need is another event like the one that precipitated the installation of the battery in the first place: a massive power failure. That'll prove the battery's effectiveness, or it won't. Either way, that's why it was installed.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Report: Tesla's Australian battery project steps in after coal units fail


Here's the thread that I started a couple of weeks ago, complete with the reneweconomy article that your article references.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4608935/Re:_Tesla_big_battery_saves_th#Post4608935

reneweconomy are the absolute spin doctors when it comes to this stuff...

Originally Posted By: Shannow
As per the article, the plant that tripped was in another state, Victoria, 600 miles away (+) from the battery. Energy USUALLY flows from Victoria to South Australia

The unit that they blamed for slow response was two states further away, an additional 1,000 miles.

So being middle of the night, there would have been a connected grid of 15,000MW of supply/demand, and I'm not sure that LY3 was likely at full load at that time of the night...looks like they used "available" capacity...in fact I'm sure...the Units are rated at 520MW, and registered at greater.

Anyway, 560 (if it was that, and it wasn't) was about 5% of the grid at the time...8MW injected in SA was 0.05%, so consider how it contributed.

At the time, there would have been 20 or there abouts thermal units running, with 200 tonnes per unit spinning at 3,000RPM...that's what they refer to as Inertia in the grid, 4,000 tonnes of spinning metal...decelerating them means that they pump more into the grid immediately, before their governor kicks in virtually instantaneously...that's the 6 second response that they refer to...then there's 60 second and 6 minute contracts that had to be met.

When frequency drops, every motor driven load on the grid drops load as well, as it's operating speed has dropped also...burns out fridge motors ultimately.

So nope, it did little to nothing...but we have no ideas of the secret contracts, nor payments that South Oz is grandstanding about after they blacked out the other year.

The guys who model the markets are concerned at how these things work, as they have no inertia, and claim that they can respond in 1/3 of a cycle...the real risk is that they respond en masse (when there's enough of them), and the grid oscillated uncontrollably.

Not buggy whip fears, just usual cart horse inversion by idealogues, who like the author in the link use facts loosely to create a sensational argument that's factually iffy.

 

[Shannow]

per my latest update in the other thread...

Originally Posted By: Shannow

reneweconomy have updated their article...
Quote:
Update: We just realised that a paragraph explaining the timings of the Tesla intervention went missing in the transfer from one document to another.

To be clear, on the timing of the response of this generators, some did some minor adjustments (1MW) as part of regulation FCAS, the moment they dropped below 50Hz.


Here's the facts...and I've only included a handfull of generators, the station within spitting distance of the units that tripped, and mine, 500 miles or therabouts away...

Quote:

Unit 02:00 02:05
LYA3 559MW 0MW (so yes, it was at full noise before tripping)

YW1 249MW 256MW
YW2 338MW 352MW
YW3 382MW 394MW (into reserve capacity margin...governor drives it, so no issues)
YW4 382MW 392MW (same as above)

MP1 414MW 460MW (can do 700, was turned down overnight at the time of the trip)


Rest of the connected generators all did similarly...that's how their governors respond to frequency in the short term, and the controls and firing in the longer.

So far from "only 1MW minor adjustments" claimed by the "napping" generators, all of whom did the heavy lifting to get the frequency back up.

AEMO try to keep a full two units worth of generation up their sleeve at any one time (N-2 contingency).

Grid wasn't at risk really.


with a little bit of research, you can test the veracity of the claims made by reneweconomy...they are pathological...

 

[SHOZ]

The Year Renewables Became Mainstream in Australia


In August, Solar Reserve announced it would build a 150-MW solar thermal plant in Port Augusta, incorporating eight hours of storage or 1,100 MWh, allowing it to operate like a conventional coal or gas power station.

Electricity retailer Snowy Hydro and Singapore-based renewable energy developer Equis will also build a 100-MW solar farm near Tailem Bend, 100 km southeast of Adelaide. Reach Solar currently has the 220-MW Bungala solar farm about 12km from Port Augusta under construction, with Origin Energy entering a power purchase agreement for the output of the project.

Lyon Group also plans to build a 330-MW solar generation and 100-MW battery storage system in the state’s Riverland.

Solar technology company Fluid Solar also unveiled its new head office in Adelaide this year, which will run completely on renewable energy, independent of the state’s power grid.

A field trial to develop highly efficient solar energy heliostats made from plastic opened in October, bringing together Bottom of Form car parts manufacturer Precision Components and the University of South Australia

The concentrated solar research field in the northern suburbs of Adelaide includes 25 heliostats each measuring 7.2 square meter and a 16-meter-tall concentrated solar PV receiver, which can generate about 30 kW of electricity per hour.

 

[SHOZ]

SolarReserve to Build 150-MW Solar Thermal Plant in South Australia

A 150MW solar thermal power plant will be built in South Australia by global company SolarReserve.

The Aurora Solar Energy Project located in Port Augusta, about 300km north of the South Australian capital Adelaide, will incorporate eight hours of storage or 1,100 MWh, allowing it to operate like a conventional coal or gas power station.

The AU$650 million plant — the biggest of its kind in the world — will have a capacity of about 135 MW under normal operating conditions with the ability to increase that output in favorable conditions.

It will be situated about 150km northwest of Jamestown, where Elon Musk will install the world’s largest Lithium-ion battery at Hornsdale Wind Farm.

Aurora will deliver 495 GWh of power annually — providing fully dispatchable baseload electricity to the network.