Small Plane Crash on Take Off - Student Pilot

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I know nothing about flying, at the same time flying has been an unrealized passion of mine my whole life. At my age it will stay "unrealized" but it still will always interest me. The closest thing I ever did in a small aircraft was sit in the co-pilots seat of what was a 4 seat plane. This was decades ago, over PA, I still remember a hot summer day and no A/C.

Ok, so Im trying to wrap my head around this one. IF I am reading this correctly did the engine itself stall or is it a stall due to what is related (in my extremely limited knowledge) to not enough airspeed do to the rapid climb? So did the plane stall? or did the engine stall?
(hope my question makes sense)

I see the photo of this young instructor and her passion and feel sad/terrible because this young lady was living her dream as a small craft instructor which at that age would have been my unrealized passion.
What I dont understand is could not the young instructor grabbed the controls from the co-pilot?. (yes cujet, hope you chime in on this one)


Few more details on plane make =
 
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Journalists, when writing about airplanes, are typically horribly inaccurate on technical details. This story is an example of gross misstatement.

The student pulled up into a steep climb. The airplane (I.e. wing) stalled. The plane crashed. At 100 feet you don’t have enough altitude to recover from a stall.

A scared young man pulling back on the controls vs. a rational young girl pushing forward, even if she pushed as hard as she could, will result in the nose being pulled up.

The student likely suffered from startle response. An amygdala hijack. You lose the ability to think rationally, you suffer auditory exclusion (sound is blocked out), tunnel vision, adrenaline dump, increased strength, breathing, and heart rate.

Great survival mechanism against Sabre-tooth tigers. Really dangerous when managing something as complex as an airplane, even a Cessna.
 
In the late 1970s and early 1980s one of the guys I knew taught flying lessens to get hours for his commercial rating. He would call me when he had an opening in his schedule and for 20 dollars I would get the intro lesson. I could in perfect conditions take off and land the plane with out stress because of having the other pilot there. I had the confidence I could steer a Cessna 152. I just can not trust myself to fly a plane. It is too 3 D for my simple mind. I love aircraft any kind of aircraft though. To pilot a plane and not die needs most impressive mind.
 
Journalists, when writing about airplanes, are typically horribly inaccurate on technical details. This story is an example of gross misstatement.

The student pulled up into a steep climb. The airplane (I.e. wing) stalled. The plane crashed. At 100 feet you don’t have enough altitude to recover from a stall.
Journalists, when writing about ANYTHING technical, are typically horribly inaccurate on any details.
 
Think it was an aerodynamic stall of the wing, not an engine stall.

Early reports are the student locked up on the controls and the cfi could not overpower. At that altitude there just was not enough time to recover.
Altitude is a pilots friend.
 
Great responses, like I said, I have never flown but I had to question the media saying "engine stall" I thought to myself it had to be related airspeed even with my tiny extremely limited knowledge of anything planes, if I even am saying it correctly as I think that is what causes aerodynamic stall? Gosh, what a shame.
 
The 3 most useless things in flying are altitude above you, fuel left behind and I forget the third.
We used to say that the only time you can have too much fuel is when you’re on fire.

But, when flying heavy airplanes out of mountainous airports (Eagle, Bogota, even Zurich) there are times when too much fuel is too much weight, and it doesn’t help.
 
When reading about aviation incidents I really only trust other pilots to get the details right.
One person I really enjoy is Juan Browne who has a youtube channel called blancolirio.
Juan is a 777 pilot, but has a lifetime of flight and aviation experience.


We are also lucky to have Astro14 here. I really enjoy his posts and banter.
 
We used to say that the only time you can have too much fuel is when you’re on fire.

But, when flying heavy airplanes out of mountainous airports (Eagle, Bogota, even Zurich) there are times when too much fuel is too much weight, and it doesn’t help.

Aspen in the summer seems to be pain.
 
So sad. I agree the above speculation seems the most plausible explanation. As a flight instructor, you've got to be ready to smack, elbow or whatever it takes to the student next to you to get his hands off the controls if he panics and brain-freezes. It happens more often in maneuvers like stalls or spins, than on landings which are usually uneventful. A hard smack in the face/nose works as it hurts and the instinctive reaction is to bring your hands up to your face (and thus off the controls).
 
Ok, only because I am interested in this stuff.
So to confirm the wing stall I suspected and not engine stall is due to the air speed being to low due to the rapid climb.
Or
another way to say it is a wing loses lift due to the angle of the climb and low air speed?
and being at so low an altitude you can not possibly (for lack of professional words) dive and recover?
 
Great responses, like I said, I have never flown but I had to question the media saying "engine stall" I thought to myself it had to be related airspeed even with my tiny extremely limited knowledge of anything planes, if I even am saying it correctly as I think that is what causes aerodynamic stall? Gosh, what a shame.
Airspeed, Angle of Attack (AOA), pitch attitude, and stall are all related, but it’s complex.

So, let’s break it down.

AOA is the angle between the relative wind, the air moving over the airplane, and a reference line ascribed to the wing, known as the mean chord line. The precise definitions aren’t as important as this: lift increases with increasing AOA, until you hit the stall AOA.

When the wing hits stall AOA, airflow over the top of the wing becomes turbulent, lift is lost, you usually have buffet, and usually a big increase in drag (this last bit is important). The relationship between AOA, lift, drag, and stall, all depend on the shape of the wing. A 172 has a simple wing, with clearly defined stall, and a very sharp drop in lift. A jet liner, for example, with a swept wing, aerodynamic twist, and a supercritical shape, has a much less defined stall. But it will still begin to stall at some AOA.

A wing will always stall at precisely the same AOA. Always. Keep that bit in mind.

So, the relationship between AOA and lift, then, is pretty simple - more AOA equals more lift up to stall, then more AOA equals less lift.

But we need enough lift for the airplane to fly. So, we need lots of air moving over the wing. Without enough air, there just isn’t enough lift. Think of a jetliner on takeoff, they get going pretty fast, so that there is enough lift to carry the weight of the airplane.

More airspeed equals more lift. In fact, it’s a square relationship, but again, the precise nature isn’t as important as the fact that more speed equals more lift, and you need enough lift to keep the plane in the air.

So, you need both airspeed and AOA to get enough lift to counter gravity. The force of lift acting on the airplane has to be equal to or greater than the force of gravity for it to fly.

If I’m low on airspeed, I need more AOA to get enough lift. That works, right up to stall AOA. If I’ve got lots of airspeed, I don’t need much AOA to create the lift.

It gets more complicated if the airplane is in a bank, and part of that lifting force is now pointing away from the ground. Some of the lift is used to counteract gravity. Some of the lift is now pointing to the inside of the turn and being used to turn the airplane to a different heading. In this case, I need more lift. It’s a physics vector thing. The vector of lift is always perpendicular to the wing. So, in a bank, there is a lift vector, which means that lifting force has a direction as well as a magnitude.

Which means, in a bank, we need a bit more total lift. So, we can increase our AOA just a bit (if we aren’t close to stall) and get a bit more lift. So, in a turn, at the same speed, we must be at a higher AOA than we would be for the same weight aircraft in wings-level flight. Rolling into a turn at low airspeed can create a stall as the pilot increases AOA to stay aloft. This is important for understanding but not critical to understanding this accident, since this accident happened when the airplane was wings level.

So, what about pitch? For small adjustments in pitch attitude, you get small changes in AOA and small changes in the airplanes flight path. For big changes in pitch, you get big changes in AOA, and you can stall an airplane, because you‘re making a big AOA change that might get you to stall AOA.

How about climb? Climb is a matter of power. A 172 doesn’t have a lot of power. If we pitch the nose up for a steep climb, the airspeed can, and will, decrease. It has to. The engine can’t make enough thrust to maintain airspeed in a steep climb.

Uh oh. Don’t we need enough airspeed to keep the wing flying at an AOA below the stall AOA?

Yeah. We do. That’s exactly what happened here. Steep climb reduces airspeed - as airspeed decreases, lift decreases.

Lift decreases, so, we have to increase AOA for more airspeed in order to stay in the air, right? Yeah, we do, but the wing will always stall at the same AOA. Once it stalls, we lose lift, and we increase drag, which slows our airspeed even more.

Recovering from a stall requires controlling the AOA. Lowering the nose to reduce AOA below the stall AOA. At 100 feet above the ground, there isn’t enough time at that lower AOA for the relatively weak engine to increase airspeed enough to get back the point where we can achieve level flight.

Continuing to pull the nose up (a visceral, amygdala reaction to impending crash) keeps the AOA above stall, high AOA, where there is not enough lift, and which keeps the drag high enough that airspeed won’t increase*.

Once that airplane got to an excessive nose up pitch, and airspeed was bleeding off (trading kinetic energy for potential energy, or airspeed for altitude ), they were doomed.

If, at 50 feet, the nose was lowered to a normal pitch, they might have maintained enough airspeed that they could fly in level flight without exceeding stall AOA.

But once they got slow, they couldn’t recover. The drag from the high AOA, caused by the deceleration from the high pitch, took away their airspeed, and when it stalled, there wasn’t enough room to recover.


* By the way, this is what Air France 447 did from 35,000 feet until impact. Nose up, full thrust, stay stalled. Even the powerful engines on that particular airliner couldn’t overcome the increased drag of a fully stalled wing.
 
Airspeed, Angle of Attack (AOA), pitch attitude, and stall are all related, but it’s complex.

So, let’s break it down.

AOA is the angle between the relative wind, the air moving over the airplane, and a reference line ascribed to the wing, known as the mean chord line. The precise definitions aren’t as important as this: lift increases with increasing AOA, until you hit the stall AOA.

When the wing hits stall AOA, airflow over the top of the wing becomes turbulent, lift is lost, you usually have buffet, and usually a big increase in drag (this last bit is important). The relationship between AOA, lift, drag, and stall, all depend on the shape of the wing. A 172 has a simple wing, with clearly defined stall, and a very sharp drop in lift. A jet liner, for example, with a swept wing, aerodynamic twist, and a supercritical shape, has a much less defined stall. But it will still begin to stall at some AOA.

A wing will always stall at precisely the same AOA. Always. Keep that bit in mind.

So, the relationship between AOA and lift, then, is pretty simple - more AOA equals more lift up to stall, then more AOA equals less lift.

But we need enough lift for the airplane to fly. So, we need lots of air moving over the wing. Without enough air, there just isn’t enough lift. Think of a jetliner on takeoff, they get going pretty fast, so that there is enough lift to carry the weight of the airplane.

More airspeed equals more lift. In fact, it’s a square relationship, but again, the precise nature isn’t as important as the fact that more speed equals more lift, and you need enough lift to keep the plane in the air.

So, you need both airspeed and AOA to get enough lift to counter gravity. The force of lift acting on the airplane has to be equal to or greater than the force of gravity for it to fly.

If I’m low on airspeed, I need more AOA to get enough lift. That works, right up to stall AOA. If I’ve got lots of airspeed, I don’t need much AOA to create the lift.

It gets more complicated if the airplane is in a bank, and part of that lifting force is now pointing away from the ground. Some of the lift is used to counteract gravity. Some of the lift is now pointing to the inside of the turn and being used to turn the airplane to a different heading. In this case, I need more lift. It’s a physics vector thing. The vector of lift is always perpendicular to the wing. So, in a bank, there is a lift vector, which means that lifting force has a direction as well as a magnitude.

Which means, in a bank, we need a bit more total lift. So, we can increase our AOA just a bit (if we aren’t close to stall) and get a bit more lift. So, in a turn, at the same speed, we must be at a higher AOA than we would be for the same weight aircraft in wings-level flight. Rolling into a turn at low airspeed can create a stall as the pilot increases AOA to stay aloft. This is important for understanding but not critical to understanding this accident, since this accident happened when the airplane was wings level.

So, what about pitch? For small adjustments in pitch attitude, you get small changes in AOA and small changes in the airplanes flight path. For big changes in pitch, you get big changes in AOA, and you can stall an airplane, because you‘re making a big AOA change that might get you to stall AOA.

How about climb? Climb is a matter of power. A 172 doesn’t have a lot of power. If we pitch the nose up for a steep climb, the airspeed can, and will, decrease. It has to. The engine can’t make enough thrust to maintain airspeed in a steep climb.

Uh oh. Don’t we need enough airspeed to keep the wing flying at an AOA below the stall AOA?

Yeah. We do. That’s exactly what happened here. Steep climb reduces airspeed - as airspeed decreases, lift decreases.

Lift decreases, so, we have to increase AOA for more airspeed in order to stay in the air, right? Yeah, we do, but the wing will always stall at the same AOA. Once it stalls, we lose lift, and we increase drag, which slows our airspeed even more.

Recovering from a stall requires controlling the AOA. Lowering the nose to reduce AOA below the stall AOA. At 100 feet above the ground, there isn’t enough time at that lower AOA for the relatively weak engine to increase airspeed enough to get back the point where we can achieve level flight.

Continuing to pull the nose up (a visceral, amygdala reaction to impending crash) keeps the AOA above stall, high AOA, where there is not enough lift, and which keeps the drag high enough that airspeed won’t increase*.

Once that airplane got to an excessive nose up pitch, and airspeed was bleeding off (trading kinetic energy for potential energy, or airspeed for altitude ), they were doomed.

If, at 50 feet, the nose was lowered to a normal pitch, they might have maintained enough airspeed that they could fly in level flight without exceeding stall AOA.

But once they got slow, they couldn’t recover. The drag from the high AOA, caused by the deceleration from the high pitch, took away their airspeed, and when it stalled, there wasn’t enough room to recover.


* By the way, this is what Air France 447 did from 35,000 feet until impact. Nose up, full thrust, stay stalled. Even the powerful engines on that particular airliner couldn’t overcome the increased drag of a fully stalled wing.
Wow, this has to be one of the most informed posts I have ever seen. Thanks, Im saving this to re-read a few times over, I do have the basic simple concept of what happened to the small plane. Your explanation of how/why is very educational. Thanks

(just checked out the Cessna 172's on controller.com like I said I know nothing about planes nor do I know if these are respected for what they are but I think they look kind of cool)
 
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Just happened to read a series of accidents on probable cause with Dan Gryder. He chalked this one up to lock up. A stronger, panicked student over powering the advice/input of a flight instructor. Ugh, terrible way to go.
Dan and I share that assessment. Reached independently.

"Lock up" is a bit of an oversimplification to describe what happens in a startle response - but yes, fundamentally, I think the same thing.
 
By the way, one of the best books describing how airplanes work is "Stick and Rudder" by Wolfgang Langewiesche - as relevant and accessible today as it was in 1944, when it was first written. I highly recommend it.

 
Just happened to read a series of accidents on probable cause with Dan Gryder. He chalked this one up to lock up. A stronger, panicked student over powering the advice/input of a flight instructor. Ugh, terrible way to go.

Dan has a great YouTube channel, along with Juan.
 
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