Sig Sauer P320 will fire if dropped
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JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: wkcars
If anyone is interested, watch the movie pentagon wars if you haven't, it's supposed to be a comedy but ironically it's also so true. Always behind schedule and over budget, that's the motto of military acquisition, and who cares if it ends up doing what they needed it to do...
Brought to you by the ever so efficient and superior private sector... since DoD doesn't actually make anything...
Cant have your cake and eat it too.
If anyone is interested, watch the movie pentagon wars if you haven't, it's supposed to be a comedy but ironically it's also so true. Always behind schedule and over budget, that's the motto of military acquisition, and who cares if it ends up doing what they needed it to do...
Brought to you by the ever so efficient and superior private sector... since DoD doesn't actually make anything...
Cant have your cake and eat it too.
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
Bring back the hammer fired pistols! A pox on striker designs and polymer frames.
This has nothing to do with striker fired -vs- hammer fired... or polymer -vs- metal. The P320 simply had a trigger design that resulted in the issue. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bring back the hammer fired pistols! A pox on striker designs and polymer frames.
This has nothing to do with striker fired -vs- hammer fired... or polymer -vs- metal. The P320 simply had a trigger design that resulted in the issue. Nothing more, nothing less.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: wkcars
If anyone is interested, watch the movie pentagon wars if you haven't, it's supposed to be a comedy but ironically it's also so true. Always behind schedule and over budget, that's the motto of military acquisition, and who cares if it ends up doing what they needed it to do...
Brought to you by the ever so efficient and superior private sector... since DoD doesn't actually make anything...
Cant have your cake and eat it too.
True. And it cannot be denied that we went to the Moon 9 times with the lowest bidder.
Originally Posted By: wkcars
If anyone is interested, watch the movie pentagon wars if you haven't, it's supposed to be a comedy but ironically it's also so true. Always behind schedule and over budget, that's the motto of military acquisition, and who cares if it ends up doing what they needed it to do...
Brought to you by the ever so efficient and superior private sector... since DoD doesn't actually make anything...
Cant have your cake and eat it too.
True. And it cannot be denied that we went to the Moon 9 times with the lowest bidder.
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Al
Why pick one of the most tested (probably reliable) pistol in the world when you can pick something else and then retro fit it. And bear in mind this firearm will mainly be used by the type of troops that use it less (good thing). Special forces have already selected the G-19.
Oh wait its "modular" so it only costs about 4 times the price of the G-19
These say it all:
https://sofrep.com/53591/socom-adopts-glock-19-will-big-army-follow/
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/10/19/glock-woos-marine-and-army-spec-ops-is-dod-next.html
It's almost comical, isn't it?
The guy who said it's a dog is holding a sig himself. Did anyone notice that? Or have the real men forgotten what Sig used to be before Cohen ruined the brand.
Originally Posted By: Al
Why pick one of the most tested (probably reliable) pistol in the world when you can pick something else and then retro fit it. And bear in mind this firearm will mainly be used by the type of troops that use it less (good thing). Special forces have already selected the G-19.
Oh wait its "modular" so it only costs about 4 times the price of the G-19
These say it all:
https://sofrep.com/53591/socom-adopts-glock-19-will-big-army-follow/
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/10/19/glock-woos-marine-and-army-spec-ops-is-dod-next.html
It's almost comical, isn't it?
The guy who said it's a dog is holding a sig himself. Did anyone notice that? Or have the real men forgotten what Sig used to be before Cohen ruined the brand.
Originally Posted By: sdude2k2000
This has nothing to do with striker fired -vs- hammer fired... or polymer -vs- metal. The P320 simply had a trigger design that resulted in the issue. Nothing more, nothing less.
I was always a little suspicious about the P320's trigger design. Almost every other serious quality, duty grade, striker fired pistol has SOME sort of trigger safety. Be it a trigger lever like Glock or a two part, hinged trigger like the M&P or FN series.
The fact that Sig never added a trigger safety and now they are in this mess could tell us something......
I guess this also defeats any potential argument that trigger safeties are unnecessary as adding a trigger safety of some sort probably would have avoided this issue from the start.
This has nothing to do with striker fired -vs- hammer fired... or polymer -vs- metal. The P320 simply had a trigger design that resulted in the issue. Nothing more, nothing less.
I was always a little suspicious about the P320's trigger design. Almost every other serious quality, duty grade, striker fired pistol has SOME sort of trigger safety. Be it a trigger lever like Glock or a two part, hinged trigger like the M&P or FN series.
The fact that Sig never added a trigger safety and now they are in this mess could tell us something......
I guess this also defeats any potential argument that trigger safeties are unnecessary as adding a trigger safety of some sort probably would have avoided this issue from the start.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
Originally Posted By: billt460
]
True. And it cannot be denied that we went to the Moon 9 times with the lowest bidder.
please nobody get stuck on this tangent, for the love of bitog
Not sure it is a tangent.
Ive read elsewhere online that the Government is paying Sig around $207/pistol procured. Not sure that is absolutely accurate. Also read online that Glock bid higher than sig by a decent amount (like $100M) on the $580M contract. If that's all true, it means that the Government did really extract best value from the vendors, and it is really the vendor's to fail or lose at this point, with unforeseen design deficiencies or cost growth later on. It appears that this is a fixable issue, and I dont know that any MHS weapons have been built or delivered, so who knows how far reaching any "iffy" models might be... But I suspect it not far.
The specification required a manual safety. People can argue until the end of time the intelligence of having one on a fighting pistol, but that's what the specification apparently said. T&E did not test the pistols in a certain configuration that has been found to be an issue. Its not contractually a deficiency if the contract metrics didnt define it, but obviously it is a big deal. Perhaps a manual safety will avoid this issue to a great extent, but it turns into a legal matter.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to specifications and test regimens. And it is unlikely that any armchair internet supervisor who wants to claim that the government is horrible, the spec writers or source selection team did anything poorly, etc., would have done any better. A lesson has been learned, not sure if it was relevant for the military pistols, but it will be interesting to see what happens.
Its most funny to see the Glock fans trying to have their day in the sun over it (Im not a Glock or a Sig fan over one another, I own both, so just see it as a ford vs chevy argument and kind of silly to bask in failures). Sig has had some issues for sure, but not sure this one would have come to light had the popularity of the P320 not grown due to the M17/18.
The following link is an interesting opinion overall on the MHS procurement:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/07/09/mhs-failure-sig-vs-glock-depth-analysis/
Originally Posted By: billt460
]
True. And it cannot be denied that we went to the Moon 9 times with the lowest bidder.
please nobody get stuck on this tangent, for the love of bitog
Not sure it is a tangent.
Ive read elsewhere online that the Government is paying Sig around $207/pistol procured. Not sure that is absolutely accurate. Also read online that Glock bid higher than sig by a decent amount (like $100M) on the $580M contract. If that's all true, it means that the Government did really extract best value from the vendors, and it is really the vendor's to fail or lose at this point, with unforeseen design deficiencies or cost growth later on. It appears that this is a fixable issue, and I dont know that any MHS weapons have been built or delivered, so who knows how far reaching any "iffy" models might be... But I suspect it not far.
The specification required a manual safety. People can argue until the end of time the intelligence of having one on a fighting pistol, but that's what the specification apparently said. T&E did not test the pistols in a certain configuration that has been found to be an issue. Its not contractually a deficiency if the contract metrics didnt define it, but obviously it is a big deal. Perhaps a manual safety will avoid this issue to a great extent, but it turns into a legal matter.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to specifications and test regimens. And it is unlikely that any armchair internet supervisor who wants to claim that the government is horrible, the spec writers or source selection team did anything poorly, etc., would have done any better. A lesson has been learned, not sure if it was relevant for the military pistols, but it will be interesting to see what happens.
Its most funny to see the Glock fans trying to have their day in the sun over it (Im not a Glock or a Sig fan over one another, I own both, so just see it as a ford vs chevy argument and kind of silly to bask in failures). Sig has had some issues for sure, but not sure this one would have come to light had the popularity of the P320 not grown due to the M17/18.
The following link is an interesting opinion overall on the MHS procurement:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/07/09/mhs-failure-sig-vs-glock-depth-analysis/
Sig has a pretty solid history of making great guns. They had back to back problems. Unusual but not unheard of. Sure Glock and others will capitalize on them. That's the free market at work. There are still tens of tho of Sigs in duty holsters all over the world getting the job done.
This has turned into what could be described as, "The Perfect Storm Of Trouble", for Sig. And like most other storms, they blow over.
1.) The 320 is relatively new, and is of modular design.
2.) It was designed without a safety. (Forget the fact that double action revolvers were as well).
3.) The military buys into it with a major multi million dollar contract.
4.) Bad things start happening right off the bat. Starting with the gun firing when dropped. (Something one would have thought to be one of the first things they tested for).
5.) Then, in the middle of all of this, a law enforcement officer gets injured when said weapon is dropped, and files a multi million dollar law suit. As do a few others.
6.) The press and the Internet immediately jump all over it. And in the process are trying to bring out as much "bad" as they possibly can.
This has happened before with firearms, and it most likely will happen again. In the meantime the gun is not going away, nor are it's customers. Look at it this way. The Glock has been out for over 30 years. And the 1911 for over a century. And people are still arguing about what's wrong with both of them. Firearms are a lot like women in that regard.
1.) The 320 is relatively new, and is of modular design.
2.) It was designed without a safety. (Forget the fact that double action revolvers were as well).
3.) The military buys into it with a major multi million dollar contract.
4.) Bad things start happening right off the bat. Starting with the gun firing when dropped. (Something one would have thought to be one of the first things they tested for).
5.) Then, in the middle of all of this, a law enforcement officer gets injured when said weapon is dropped, and files a multi million dollar law suit. As do a few others.
6.) The press and the Internet immediately jump all over it. And in the process are trying to bring out as much "bad" as they possibly can.
This has happened before with firearms, and it most likely will happen again. In the meantime the gun is not going away, nor are it's customers. Look at it this way. The Glock has been out for over 30 years. And the 1911 for over a century. And people are still arguing about what's wrong with both of them. Firearms are a lot like women in that regard.
Originally Posted By: Leo99
I shot a lot of pistols before buying a S&W MP. The Sig was too complicated for me. Too many levers. The Glock and MP are very simple. Pull the trigger and it goes bang. Don't pull the trigger and it doesn't go bang. I can handle that.
This conversation, that you replied to, is about the Sig P320, a striker fired pistol identical in function to the Glock or Smith M&P. No extra levers, no complications; just pull the trigger, it goes bang.
I shot a lot of pistols before buying a S&W MP. The Sig was too complicated for me. Too many levers. The Glock and MP are very simple. Pull the trigger and it goes bang. Don't pull the trigger and it doesn't go bang. I can handle that.
This conversation, that you replied to, is about the Sig P320, a striker fired pistol identical in function to the Glock or Smith M&P. No extra levers, no complications; just pull the trigger, it goes bang.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
Originally Posted By: billt460
]
True. And it cannot be denied that we went to the Moon 9 times with the lowest bidder.
please nobody get stuck on this tangent, for the love of bitog
Not sure it is a tangent.
I was referring to the second meaning via the highlighted text above. A week ago some numpty in Off Topic was arguing about the Earth being flat. Argh
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
Originally Posted By: billt460
]
True. And it cannot be denied that we went to the Moon 9 times with the lowest bidder.
please nobody get stuck on this tangent, for the love of bitog
Not sure it is a tangent.
I was referring to the second meaning via the highlighted text above. A week ago some numpty in Off Topic was arguing about the Earth being flat. Argh
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: Leo99
I shot a lot of pistols before buying a S&W MP. The Sig was too complicated for me. Too many levers. The Glock and MP are very simple. Pull the trigger and it goes bang. Don't pull the trigger and it doesn't go bang. I can handle that.
This conversation, that you replied to, is about the Sig P320, a striker fired pistol identical in function to the Glock or Smith M&P. No extra levers, no complications; just pull the trigger, it goes bang.
The P22x series DA/SA Sigs have all the levers I want and none of the levers I don't want (no safety)
Originally Posted By: Leo99
I shot a lot of pistols before buying a S&W MP. The Sig was too complicated for me. Too many levers. The Glock and MP are very simple. Pull the trigger and it goes bang. Don't pull the trigger and it doesn't go bang. I can handle that.
This conversation, that you replied to, is about the Sig P320, a striker fired pistol identical in function to the Glock or Smith M&P. No extra levers, no complications; just pull the trigger, it goes bang.
The P22x series DA/SA Sigs have all the levers I want and none of the levers I don't want (no safety)
Originally Posted By: AMC
Originally Posted By: sdude2k2000
This has nothing to do with striker fired -vs- hammer fired... or polymer -vs- metal. The P320 simply had a trigger design that resulted in the issue. Nothing more, nothing less.
I was always a little suspicious about the P320's trigger design. Almost every other serious quality, duty grade, striker fired pistol has SOME sort of trigger safety. Be it a trigger lever like Glock or a two part, hinged trigger like the M&P or FN series.
The fact that Sig never added a trigger safety and now they are in this mess could tell us something......
I guess this also defeats any potential argument that trigger safeties are unnecessary as adding a trigger safety of some sort probably would have avoided this issue from the start.
Remember when Ruger released the SR9, it did not have a trigger safety and had some accidental drop fire incidents. What did Ruger do? They recalled the gun and installed a trigger with a little dingy. Problem solved. Ruger knew the F'ed up and fixed the problem.
I think that Gaston guy is on to something when he put the dingus on the trigger.
Originally Posted By: sdude2k2000
This has nothing to do with striker fired -vs- hammer fired... or polymer -vs- metal. The P320 simply had a trigger design that resulted in the issue. Nothing more, nothing less.
I was always a little suspicious about the P320's trigger design. Almost every other serious quality, duty grade, striker fired pistol has SOME sort of trigger safety. Be it a trigger lever like Glock or a two part, hinged trigger like the M&P or FN series.
The fact that Sig never added a trigger safety and now they are in this mess could tell us something......
I guess this also defeats any potential argument that trigger safeties are unnecessary as adding a trigger safety of some sort probably would have avoided this issue from the start.
Remember when Ruger released the SR9, it did not have a trigger safety and had some accidental drop fire incidents. What did Ruger do? They recalled the gun and installed a trigger with a little dingy. Problem solved. Ruger knew the F'ed up and fixed the problem.
I think that Gaston guy is on to something when he put the dingus on the trigger.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: wkcars
If anyone is interested, watch the movie pentagon wars if you haven't, it's supposed to be a comedy but ironically it's also so true. Always behind schedule and over budget, that's the motto of military acquisition, and who cares if it ends up doing what they needed it to do...
Brought to you by the ever so efficient and superior private sector... since DoD doesn't actually make anything...
Cant have your cake and eat it too.
The DoD does make certain things, from tank barrels (Watervliet Arsenal Rotary Forge) to gunner protection kits (Made in NJ no less). There are some Government Owned Government Operated facilities that make things for the military.
Originally Posted By: wkcars
If anyone is interested, watch the movie pentagon wars if you haven't, it's supposed to be a comedy but ironically it's also so true. Always behind schedule and over budget, that's the motto of military acquisition, and who cares if it ends up doing what they needed it to do...
Brought to you by the ever so efficient and superior private sector... since DoD doesn't actually make anything...
Cant have your cake and eat it too.
The DoD does make certain things, from tank barrels (Watervliet Arsenal Rotary Forge) to gunner protection kits (Made in NJ no less). There are some Government Owned Government Operated facilities that make things for the military.
Any P320 owners get their pistols 'voluntarily upgraded' by SIG yet?
https://www.sigsauer.com/support/p320-voluntary-upgrade/
https://www.sigsauer.com/support/p320-voluntary-upgrade/
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Popular Mechanics
Obviously, I'm curious to hear what you guys have to say about it.
I was driving the parts truck the past month and not getting as many hours as when I detail. I'm back to detailing and am getting more hours. I'm saving up for the P320 Compact with the new fixed trigger.
Anything is better than a Glock.
Popular Mechanics
Obviously, I'm curious to hear what you guys have to say about it.
I was driving the parts truck the past month and not getting as many hours as when I detail. I'm back to detailing and am getting more hours. I'm saving up for the P320 Compact with the new fixed trigger.
Anything is better than a Glock.
Originally Posted By: CajunLariat
Anything is better than a Glock.
Anything is better than a Glock.
Originally Posted By: CajunLariat
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Popular Mechanics
Obviously, I'm curious to hear what you guys have to say about it.
I was driving the parts truck the past month and not getting as many hours as when I detail. I'm back to detailing and am getting more hours. I'm saving up for the P320 Compact with the new fixed trigger.
Anything is better than a Glock.
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Popular Mechanics
Obviously, I'm curious to hear what you guys have to say about it.
I was driving the parts truck the past month and not getting as many hours as when I detail. I'm back to detailing and am getting more hours. I'm saving up for the P320 Compact with the new fixed trigger.
Anything is better than a Glock.
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