Rethinking gun control/types of purchases

[supton]

Originally Posted By: WyrTwister
How much does the electronics possessed by the " average " kid cost ? Smart phones , music , video games ?

And if he / she happens to be doing drugs ? How much does that cost ?



Yet it's pretty commonplace today to complain about how today's kids can't be bothered to get a job, do anything, and all they do is mooch off their parents until they can go to college (on loans they won't be able to repay).

Which is to again ask, where'd the money come from? Was the kid holding down a job, or was this something (more or less) given to him?

 

[Nick1994]

A lot of people don't want to even try to do anything with gun laws. Whether it's restricting the amount of ammo a gun can hold, bump stocks, different background checks, etc. they want absolutely nothing to be done.

Then they say arm the teachers. I've been a student for the last 19 years of my life, have had over 100 teachers. Only two of them (former Marines) would I even somewhat trust with a gun. I'd be terrified if some whackjob teacher was carrying a gun on their hip in class. Teachers lose their tempers (as humans sometimes do) and they'd probably shoot the kids, or the gun would get wrestled away by someone.

Then they say put armed security guards and metal detectors in schools. While I think this is a somewhat decent idea, the new budget cuts $9 billion from the Education budget. There's 140,000 schools in the U.S., if a guard makes $40k a year, that's $5.6 billion a year, not including metal detectors. Schools can't even afford paper and pens.

Instead of everyone putting their fingers in their ears and not willing to listen, be open minded and see if we can alter our laws reasonably. Not too long ago we had segregated schools and black people couldn't vote. We changed our laws as modern times change.

Just my 2 cents

 

[NYSteve]

Originally Posted By: andyd
I'm gonna try like the dickens to keep this thread going. This is hearsay. The guns were in a locked case. The "adult" in the situation "thought" he had the "only" key. Is this true? I don't know gun cases, but most locks come with 2 keys.

I get the 2nd amendment. Just not going there. Gun guys, why do you own assault rifles? Because they are neat and go bang. You ought to see what they can do to a watermelon! Kinda like fireworks? I was more into blowing up stuff and molotov cocktails. Can you hunt deer or birds with it? Coyotes? Home defense? Against whom? Them, whoever them are. Whatever. WE just have to get way better at keeping guns away from whackjobs. Secure your weapons (toys). Teens want to blow stuff up ? Join the army and get taught by experts. They will put your teen age angst to good purpose.

You know what the scary thing is? School shootings no longer stir me like they used to. I wept when I heard about Sandyhook. Now, I change the channel.


I think you might be missing what an "assault rifle" really is. An Assault Rifle is typically classified as a semi-automatic rifle and what accessories that are attached to it, mainly a handgrip and stock, along with other things like flash suppressor and sometimes bayonet mount.

This is the important part: **it has nothing to do with the caliper (size of bullet), velocity (how fast it goes) or how fast it shoot**.
Pretty much any gun will "blow up" a watermelon - could be a single shot shotgun, cowboy lever rifle too.

"Assault Rifles" have been adopted by LE as a much more accurate and easier to shoot weapon than shotguns of the past. DOJ has a great paper on this.

There are also numerous instances of homeowner defending themselves with AR-15s and the like, so it's not some boogie man theory, it happens all the time.

I always encourage everyone to get informed on what type of firearms are out there and go to a range and actually shoot them.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
After this last shooting in Florida,,how much is enough and how do we control nut cases...The FBI knew something on the shooter and it appears someone dropped the ball to reel this guy in...

How about just selling single shot rifles and plain jane 6 shooter pistols in the future...I do not have the answer yet...


Those restrictions, by the way, wouldn't have made any difference in any of the shootings.


Really?! It would make a huge difference in mass shootings, to have smaller size legal magazines for rifles. You know this, you understand tactics and the concept of firepower.
We don't outfit soldiers with 6 shooters, and single shot rifles... Nor pickup trucks or pressure cooker bombs...
Soldiers get a rifle with large magazines because they are the best tool for carrying around alot of firepower.

How could the Las Vegas guy shoot 100's of rounds so fast without large magazines?
Or the guy in Miami hold dozens of people hostage without large magazines?

We have had mass shootings up here, and just like most shootings in the US, they are done with legal and easily attainable weapons, but with smaller magazines its much harder to kill as many people, so the body counts are much lower...

 

[andyd]

I think you're right. I trace it back to not having a parent in the home. A parent, or a grandparent which solves another situation. Don't even get me started about single parenting. That is plain wrong. YOU father children. YOU have the duty to raise them hopefully to the point where they give you grandchildren and your genes are carried on.

 

[Danh]

Originally Posted By: WyrTwister
Why is the media not going ballistic , every day about the number of people injured and killed , each day by people under the influence of drugs and / or alcohol ? Why are the talking heads and politicians not burning up the air waves ?.


Umm, maybe, just maybe because the victims here are true innocents at the start of their lives doing nothing more than attending school in what should be a safe environment. They did not contribute to their deaths in any way by abusing drugs or alcohol or violating any other societal norm.

And, perhaps you haven’t been watching, but the media has been paying lots of attention to opioid deaths.

But I guess the whole thing being a big government and media plot to strip us of liberties is a more plausible explanation.

Thread should be shut down.

 

[ZZman]

The only real solution is less guns. But the Second Amendment stops this solution.
Handguns are the murder/suicide weapon of choice not military style weapons. Military style get the headlines because of their power and high rate of fire and accuracy which can kill many people quickly.
I would love to see shotguns and hinting rifles only. But that will never occur.

 

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted By: 28oz
I think the problem is multi-faceted, but mostly cultural and related to the breakdown and public disdain and mockery of the nuclear family. Read this article this morning, and I think it makes a very good point.

https://selfgovern.com/7486-2/

Banning inanimate objects and creating more laws that don't affect criminals aren't the answer.


This!

Little boys and young men need fathers who are positive influences in there lives. No ifs, ands, buts.

We need to focus on the cause, not the symptoms.

 

[WyrTwister]

Originally Posted By: NYSteve
Originally Posted By: andyd
I'm gonna try like the dickens to keep this thread going. This is hearsay. The guns were in a locked case. The "adult" in the situation "thought" he had the "only" key. Is this true? I don't know gun cases, but most locks come with 2 keys.

I get the 2nd amendment. Just not going there. Gun guys, why do you own assault rifles? Because they are neat and go bang. You ought to see what they can do to a watermelon! Kinda like fireworks? I was more into blowing up stuff and molotov cocktails. Can you hunt deer or birds with it? Coyotes? Home defense? Against whom? Them, whoever them are. Whatever. WE just have to get way better at keeping guns away from whackjobs. Secure your weapons (toys). Teens want to blow stuff up ? Join the army and get taught by experts. They will put your teen age angst to good purpose.

You know what the scary thing is? School shootings no longer stir me like they used to. I wept when I heard about Sandyhook. Now, I change the channel.


I think you might be missing what an "assault rifle" really is. An Assault Rifle is typically classified as a semi-automatic rifle and what accessories that are attached to it, mainly a handgrip and stock, along with other things like flash suppressor and sometimes bayonet mount.

This is the important part: **it has nothing to do with the caliper (size of bullet), velocity (how fast it goes) or how fast it shoot**.
Pretty much any gun will "blow up" a watermelon - could be a single shot shotgun, cowboy lever rifle too.

"Assault Rifles" have been adopted by LE as a much more accurate and easier to shoot weapon than shotguns of the past. DOJ has a great paper on this.

There are also numerous instances of homeowner defending themselves with AR-15s and the like, so it's not some boogie man theory, it happens all the time.

I always encourage everyone to get informed on what type of firearms are out there and go to a range and actually shoot them.


Very true . The assault weapon traces back to military use during WWII , by the Germans , I think .

By definition , an assault weapon is capable of semi auto & full auto fire . That is not what we are talking about in these school shootings .

We have let the anti gun crowd define what an assault weapon is .

But that is neither here nor there .

You take one crazy with most any type of gun , you un-arm a group ( most of which are children , scared out of their minds ) . The odds are in whose favor ?

As a different example , think back to the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania , on 9-11 . A few responsible , courageous adults , bare handed attacked the terrorist . Yes , they and every one else on the plane dies . But I have no doubt they prevented that plane from impacting some other building , full of people . And by doing so , saved many , many more people , than the number on the plane .

Some one needs to step up and start teaching some of us adults to be responsible , like the people on that plane that resisted the terrorists . And we need to become responsible adults .

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: ZZman
Military style get the headlines because of their power


Technically these "assault" weapons use a lower power round--it makes the gun easier to train and shoot with. Most states won't let one hunt deer with a 223. Is it deadly? sure, and perhaps I'm splitting hairs. But assault weapons went the other way after WWII.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Originally Posted By: cpayne5
Originally Posted By: 28oz
I think the problem is multi-faceted, but mostly cultural and related to the breakdown and public disdain and mockery of the nuclear family. Read this article this morning, and I think it makes a very good point.

https://selfgovern.com/7486-2/

Banning inanimate objects and creating more laws that don't affect criminals aren't the answer.


This!

Little boys and young men need fathers who are positive influences in there lives. No ifs, ands, buts.

We need to focus on the cause, not the symptoms.


True, but I think it might take generations to correct if at all... what can be done in the meantime as well?

It's cliché, but both sides will need to give some for there to be any measureable difference to be made. The real problem is any positive change will require sacrifice... which no one in this day an age wants. Either $, rights or freedom.

 

[WyrTwister]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
After this last shooting in Florida,,how much is enough and how do we control nut cases...The FBI knew something on the shooter and it appears someone dropped the ball to reel this guy in...

How about just selling single shot rifles and plain jane 6 shooter pistols in the future...I do not have the answer yet...


Those restrictions, by the way, wouldn't have made any difference in any of the shootings.


Really?! It would make a huge difference in mass shootings, to have smaller size legal magazines for rifles. You know this, you understand tactics and the concept of firepower.
We don't outfit soldiers with 6 shooters, and single shot rifles... Nor pickup trucks or pressure cooker bombs...
Soldiers get a rifle with large magazines because they are the best tool for carrying around alot of firepower.

How could the Las Vegas guy shoot 100's of rounds so fast without large magazines?
Or the guy in Miami hold dozens of people hostage without large magazines?

We have had mass shootings up here, and just like most shootings in the US, they are done with legal and easily attainable weapons, but with smaller magazines its much harder to kill as many people, so the body counts are much lower...




My guess is you take a school full of children ( scared out of their minds ) and some un-armed adults . The bad guy has a gun , of some sort . And the bad guy is the only one that is not startled / surprised out of his / her mind .

Which person do you think controls the situation .

You bring up the shooting in Los Vegas . The audio of the shooting sounds to me like belt feed full automatic fire . Think belt feed machine gun . Hello ! They are heavily regulated . For all practical purposed , almost totally illegal .

Why is it we have not heard any more conclusive information from law enforcement ? Did one guy tote all those guns and all that ammo right through the hotel lobby ? They can not say they are not releasing information because it would jeopardize a conviction of the lone gunman . Supposedly , he is dead .

Could there be agendas , run amuck , in this case ?

 

[mbacfp]

IndyIan, I see your point on the high capacity magazine argument. However, in 2013 their was a shooting on the campus of Santa Monica (California) Community college by an AR-15 and the suspect had a high capacity magazine (which is banned in California)...problem is bad people will usually always find a way to get one. We can ban them but cannot uninvent them.

 

[Whitewolf]

The fact is that if certain people want to make some kind of killing then they will. See below:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cri...l-a8137836.html

The point is that in the case of Florida it was a gun, no argument. However the authorities appear to have been negligent.

In the case of these sorts of people that are intent on causing destruction it doesn't matter that in this case it's a gun. Next time it could be poison or whatever comes to hand!

As an afterthought, gun crime in the UK has actually risen since the gun ban!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: mbacfp
IndyIan, I see your point on the high capacity magazine argument. However, in 2013 their was a shooting on the campus of Santa Monica (California) Community college by an AR-15 and the suspect had a high capacity magazine (which is banned in California)...problem is bad people will usually always find a way to get one. We can ban them but cannot uninvent them.


And often, like in Canada, the difference between a 5-round mag and a 20-30 round one is a rivet. If somebody is already going to go out of their way to break the law, drilling out a rivet isn't going to be a game changer.

 

[mbacfp]

WyrTwister, my wife had some students who survived the Vegas shooting in her class...they are very messed up over it. I would love to see how the shooter(s) got all those weapons in that room without any suspicion. Also, the helicopter that was flying over the building during the shooting and was using a transponder code from a South West Airlines plane. Unbelievable how the mainstream media just moves on...nothing to see here...oh, ban bump stocks.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
After this last shooting in Florida,,how much is enough and how do we control nut cases...The FBI knew something on the shooter and it appears someone dropped the ball to reel this guy in...

How about just selling single shot rifles and plain jane 6 shooter pistols in the future...I do not have the answer yet...


How about this: keeping guns out of the hands of criminals in the first place? Only 3 percent of criminals obtain their guns legally.

I've got an idea: let's make buying a gun for someone, that shouldn't have a gun, known as a "straw purchase" a serious felony, punishable by a 10 year MANDATORY prison sentence, and a $250,000 fine. Real penalties. Serious consequences.

THAT would keep the guns from getting to criminals, wouldn't it?

Oh, wait, that law has been on the books for decades...but it isn't enforced...despite hundreds of thousands of "straw purchases" since then.

The Columbine shooters weren't legal to own guns...and the person who bought them their guns plea bargained down to suspended sentence.

We have a People Problem folks.

Here is some info on Cornyn-Murphy bill:


Originally Posted By: WSJ
As we’ve learned since Nikolas Cruz killed 17 people at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, the 19-year-old was a known threat. The Broward County Sheriff’s Office responded to at least 20 complaints about his behavior, and the FBI received a tip in January with specific information about his social-media posts and overt threats. The school had sent out an email about the expelled student, asking to be notified if he showed up with a backpack.


Originally Posted By: WSJ
These ideas might not have stopped Nikolas Cruz, but then neither would the oft-proposed ban on AR-15s. He could as easily have bought handguns, which is how Seung-Hui Cho killed 32 people at Virginia Tech in 2007. But one consequence of Parkland should be a debate on how American society can deny the dangerous mentally ill access to guns of any kind. That will require a rethinking of privacy laws and state mental-health statutes.

Democrats keep saying they merely want “common sense” gun laws, not a ban, and the Cornyn bill is a test of their sincerity.

 

[Danh]

Originally Posted By: WyrTwister
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
After this last shooting in Florida,,how much is enough and how do we control nut cases...The FBI knew something on the shooter and it appears someone dropped the ball to reel this guy in...

How about just selling single shot rifles and plain jane 6 shooter pistols in the future...I do not have the answer yet...


Those restrictions, by the way, wouldn't have made any difference in any of the shootings.


Really?! It would make a huge difference in mass shootings, to have smaller size legal magazines for rifles. You know this, you understand tactics and the concept of firepower.
We don't outfit soldiers with 6 shooters, and single shot rifles... Nor pickup trucks or pressure cooker bombs...
Soldiers get a rifle with large magazines because they are the best tool for carrying around alot of firepower.

How could the Las Vegas guy shoot 100's of rounds so fast without large magazines?
Or the guy in Miami hold dozens of people hostage without large magazines?

We have had mass shootings up here, and just like most shootings in the US, they are done with legal and easily attainable weapons, but with smaller magazines its much harder to kill as many people, so the body counts are much lower...




My guess is you take a school full of children ( scared out of their minds ) and some un-armed adults . The bad guy has a gun , of some sort . And the bad guy is the only one that is not startled / surprised out of his / her mind .

Which person do you think controls the situation .

You bring up the shooting in Los Vegas . The audio of the shooting sounds to me like belt feed full automatic fire . Think belt feed machine gun . Hello ! They are heavily regulated . For all practical purposed , almost totally illegal .

Why is it we have not heard any more conclusive information from law enforcement ? Did one guy tote all those guns and all that ammo right through the hotel lobby ? They can not say they are not releasing information because it would jeopardize a conviction of the lone gunman . Supposedly , he is dead .

Could there be agendas , run amuck , in this case ?


The Las Vegas shooter was using a perfectly legal “bump stock”, which uses recoil to turn a semi automatic rifle into one that is effectively fully automatic. Now why these are legal is another question, but there’s no suppression of facts. Then again, why let that stand in the way of another conspiracy theory?

 

[WyrTwister]

Speaking of criminals owing guns ( illegal to sell a gun to someone convicted of a felony , unless they had been pardoned ) .

How about the criminals in government that were responsible for " Fast and Furious " ?

Are any of them behind bars ? And those are the people that are suppose to " keep us safe " .

 

[Smoky14]

People keep focusing on the gun, I assume it's easier than focusing on the problem which is people who are doing evil/illegal acts. Murder is illegal, if done with a gun, hammer, knife, car, ball bat, or you get the picture.
We continue to "school" our youth and leave them with no "education" on how the make decisions based on reason and good judgment.
Enough already
Smoky